|
17th May 2003, 08:44 | #81 |
|
Actually, I'm more or less with Trigger, I think Zion is still in the matrix. The Agent Smith program obviously worked out how to 'replicate' himself to matrix inhabitants, how else could he replicate himself to the guy from the ship (who in theory is a flesh and blood 'free' human). And the coma Neo is in becomes his awakening into the 'real' world and becomming the first free human. We have no idea yet what that world will be, but I'm really looking forward to Revolutions
|
17th May 2003, 08:45 | #82 | |
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 08:47 | #83 |
|
Triggers arguement holds a lot of weight with me actually.
Take into consideration the level of advancement of Zion itself. It is a technological wonderland (albeit a touch primitive in culture). This Indicates a lot of time and resources to salvage parts and construct. Now in that there are only 23 people (by the architects own admission) to be reawakened when Zion is destroyed there cannot be enough time and people to completely rebuild to the level that it is currently at. The new Zion couldn't be placed at the site of the old Zion, purely for the fact that with the amount of drilling and destruction the caverns that were created to house the inhabitants of Zion wouldn't be able to withstand the 6 attacks indicated (can anyone say "swiss cheese"?) It makes more sense for the machines to create a construct that to all intents and purposes is a wakening from "The Matrix" and allow sentinel programs to tackle the rebellious of the human race, rather than risk the source of their existence. my 2p =) Just a coupla thoughts anyway. *edit* also seeing as Neo is supposedly realeased in 2184 i think it is and the Matrix was supposedly created in 1996 i think it was said in the first movie that doesn't allow enough time for 6 Entire generations of Neo and Zion to grow Last edited by Trigga*happY : 17th May 2003 at 09:01. |
17th May 2003, 10:24 | #84 | |
The Bicycle for Fish
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 10:46 | #85 |
|
Why exactly is the matrix needed? Surely a human body will continue outputting the same amount of energy whether it is stimulated or not. So why run the risk of people finding out, and being able to get themselves and others out of the matrix?
Using the laws of physics and diminishing returns, a human body wouldn't be able to output more energy than it takes in, on top of the fact that there is all the energy required to run the matrix and process the nutrients to feed the humans. So, how long can the matrix run for? And seeing as how the human race continues to increase in numbers, where are the machines geting their power from? If they aren't getting it from the humans, why are they needed? Another interesting thought: what if the Matrix is some kind of Ark? We fucked the planet, and the machines were assigned to rescue us, and keep the race going until the environment is suitable again. They could run off geothermal power, or even nuclear, using human energy to cushion the hit of running the matrix to keep humanity from turning into vegetables. The machines may have malfunctioned or, as has been said, Zion may be full of obsolete programs that have commandeered human bodies. My brain hurts. |
17th May 2003, 10:57 | #86 |
|
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
I'm probably just confused here but how does it result in the extinction of the entire human race? Is it because a. since the "real world" is actually still the matrix that if something happens to the matrix they die for real. and b. The people in zion aren't awake since theyre still in the 2nd matrix and when they get attacked and die they are dead in the real world ? fucking mind boggeling >< |
17th May 2003, 11:10 | #87 |
|
|
17th May 2003, 11:18 | #88 | |
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 11:24 | #89 | |
|
Quote:
What doesnt make sense to me is that "love" will always make this neo choose that door. Which is said to lead to the extinction of the human race, having huge repercusions on the machines. So that means someone must want this and the architect almost alludes to it being a result of his planning. Which doesnt make sense. So im guessing the oracle created the love, perhaps even shown by her first prophecy to neo in the first movie. But why this leads to the end is hazy. For example couldnt the machines simply not allow the second matrix to tap into the first. Let the humans fight a physical war? With respect to the anomily still being in the matrix using this scenario, Neo had no idea untill morpheous told him, Neo is hardly a problem as Mr Anderson. My biggest problem lies in the "extinction" of the human race. When the machines began the matrix the first humans had to be inserted. There for the machines have the power to insert humans into the matrix eg they dont have to be born into the matrix. Just because all the humans from the matrix will die when Neo chooses to cause the system to crash. Doesnt mean the machines cant simply create more humans, as you see them doing in the first matrix. |
|
17th May 2003, 11:35 | #90 |
|
Another gripe. Recently ive noticed some major lapses in wire fighting in hollywood. Sure wire fighting allows people to move in ways not humanly possible buuuut!
They should still be subject to physics!! Eg when neo gets thrown across the court yard, he is flipping backwards, only to rotate in the other direction just before hitting the wall with his back. I mean come on! How ass did that look. When the agents get thrown large distances, they fly a straight line then drop! The cgi got it right, that looked mint, physics wise. Watch any Jet Lee movie and watch how he can jump higher than possible yet still looks completely real. The first movie did this great, the second was like a training session for first year special effects students. And no slow motion innovation! they didnt even rip off the big bullet dodge, infact did they even use any of the cool tech from the first one, the bullets had no way near the same feel as the first, the camera was always far to linear. If i didnt know better i would agrue to the end that the first and the second movie were made by different people(s). |
17th May 2003, 11:35 | #91 |
|
Ok, if Zion is in fact a second matrix, why did Agent Smith so desperately want the information codes for Zion in the first movie? Since he's a machine, he should know about the whole thing, right? Or was it just another necessary twist to make Neo make the decisions that he made...
|
17th May 2003, 11:35 | #92 |
|
Where in the first movie did we see the machines create humans?
|
17th May 2003, 11:43 | #93 | |
|
Quote:
Though I dont understand what Neo not going through the door to the source would do to kill the population of humans in the matrix. |
|
17th May 2003, 11:44 | #94 | |
|
Quote:
The love scene/ rave thingee was far too long and didn't really add to the story. I reckon a minute or so of Trinity and Neo would have been fine, and that Zion should have been much more civilised. It looked like some kind of hippy commune, getting away from technology. The much hyped 'virtual camera' didn't live up to expectations. In the Brawl, Neo looked 'smoothed' like the FF movie, or a bad plastic surgery accident. Like the rant says, just cos you can use CG doesn't mean you should. Much of the Brawl could have been done using Keanu, not a CG double: the Smiths, yes, Neo, no. He's right though, it did feel like a game. A bit like Aliens was to Alien. Alien was one alien and was all suspense and horror, Aliens was an action movie; not a bad one but a different mindset than the original. |
|
17th May 2003, 11:49 | #95 | |
Casualty of Society
|
Quote:
__________________
Perception may be Reality ... but is Reality just a Perception? abuse me: [email protected] |
|
17th May 2003, 12:20 | #96 |
|
Jax: How do do we know the "real world" he is woken up into is not just another matrix for an anomaly like Neo who chose love over salvation?
Trigga*happY: 2184 is just a date morp ripped out of his ass, they have NFI what the date is, IMHO if this is the sixth version of the matrix, its probably several hundred years fruther into the future than you think. Zuldan: I think that is just a plot hole, either that or the agents are kept in the dark and only the architect knows the truth behind xion I still find it hard to believe xion is a matrix in a matrix, how does Neo hack back in? If he wakes up for real, who is there to rescue him and deal with his atrophy etc, I seriously doubt the real machines would let him live if he woke up. And from the revolutions trailer he is definately back in the matrix and helps in the defense of xion...... |
17th May 2003, 13:14 | #97 |
|
I got the feeling that the Oracle *isn't* the 'mother' of the Matrix. When Neo says "the Oracle", the Architect replies "Please.". His tone suggests that she isn't.
|
17th May 2003, 13:35 | #98 |
|
Heheh that'd be an interesting twist... If the 'Oracle' isnt the Matrix's mother, who could it be? They could throw a real curveball in and make it Trinity Manipulating Neo into doing exactly what she wants.
Under normal circumstances the previous six incarnations of the matrix have been completed and the buffer issues resolved as Neo has done what he was supposed to. And the only reason she entered the matrix on this last time was to prevent an errant program (Agent Smith) from stopping Neo from fulfilling his part in the program Just me pondering nm, move along. |
17th May 2003, 13:55 | #99 | |
|
Quote:
Trinity as mother of the matrix would be trippy, but other than the Oracle there aren't any major female characters (Niobe doesn't count) so if it isn't the Oracle... This and this bother me. |
|
17th May 2003, 13:56 | #100 |
|
Just saw it and have to agree that it needs some major editing. They could probably trim fifteen minutes to half an hour off and improve the film.
And the Matrix within a Matrix looks plausible. The problem is that the Agent Smith (now a virus) has also discovered this. By hijacking one of the zion humans he was able to leave Matrix 1 and exit into Matrix 2. That's also where Neo stopped the Squiddies (that sort of thing does not happen in the real world). Of course the machines also have a little problem now that Agent Smith is loose in Matrix 2 and able to take over programs and humans exponentially. Soon all their base will belong to Smith. (Keep watching after the credits: it'll answer some questions). So all Neo has to do is get to the MCP, throw his disk into it and the system will be restored to normal and he can go back to the Real World. Last edited by Axident : 17th May 2003 at 13:57. |
17th May 2003, 13:57 | #101 |
|
Whoops good point, I forgot about that.
|
17th May 2003, 14:01 | #102 | |
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 14:04 | #103 |
|
You're all smoking some serious shit.
Zion is real, where oh where does it even indicate that it is not? Did anyone watch the preview for the next one? Real people fighting the machines with real weapons, sure this could be another matrix, but I saw nothing to indicate it wasn't real. And "agent smith replicating himself into the guy outside the matrix", wtf did this come from, he exited the matrix in the same way humans do. It stands to reason that if the code of the machines is written to accomodate a human mind, then the human mind could well accomodate the code of the machines, if agent Smith had been able to function in a 'Zion matrix' like he could in 'the matrix' surely he would have just gone on a massive killing spree, who would need a sentinel? Where did we see any evidence of Smith taking over others within Zion? As for how Neo stops the sentinels, I have no clue, but I'm sure we'll find out. I'm with Spoon1 on this. |
17th May 2003, 14:09 | #104 | |
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 14:10 | #105 |
|
Like someoned mentioned; maybe Neo now has a link to the machines, either because of his meeting with the Architect and all that stuff, OR because of his weird link with Smith.
|
17th May 2003, 14:25 | #106 |
Laserman
|
yes humans cutting off the machines from the sun was such a Timmy thing to do, but it does mention they were driven to insanity and this was their 'most desparate plan yet'
kinda sad how humans got utterly owned by machines. utterly fucken raped :/ |
17th May 2003, 14:26 | #107 |
|
like the animatrix/matrix thing with the kid who woke himself up like in a kids story in animatrix
next movie is going to be wicked with neo being to go in and out of the matrix without having to be at broadcast depth etc like agent smith |
17th May 2003, 14:50 | #108 | |
|
Quote:
The Oracle was just a program to help setup Neo on his path back to the source, much like the keymaker I thought... Im not convinced on the whole matrix in a matrix thing either Outside of the whole Buddhism type theme of the movies it doesnt quite fit for me.. Last edited by Peon : 17th May 2003 at 14:53. |
|
17th May 2003, 15:02 | #109 |
|
Ive been struggling with an idea for a while now, and in no way can i make it work but if you could it would explain the neo/smith ending.
Smith triggered the emp, and possible that was at exactly the same time neo looked at the squiddies, hence somehow they were effect by the emp through the neo/smith connection obviously the timeline doesnt fit and the whole neo smith connection transfer thing is complete ass but yeah :P When neo was running from the squidies i nudged my mate and raised my open hand, jus before neo pauses and does exactly the same, got some geek cred for that one. |
17th May 2003, 15:26 | #110 |
|
Ok so the Matrix-within-the-Matrix idea comes about from the fact that Neo was able to stop the sentinels from within what we originally thought was the real world but was really the matrix-within-the-matrix?
Or did I miss something? |
17th May 2003, 16:04 | #111 |
Laserman
|
it comes from the idea that The Architect had trouble designing a matrix that people would accept
through multiple trial and error versions he was frustrated with failure as humans refused to believe and 'woke up', also there was a problem with the anomality that is 'the one' which wakes up humans with help of a lesser mind he stumbled accross a simple solution - create another matrix that would be more believable by those who disbelieved the first one in which humans create Zion, fight the machines and in their struggle believe they are free because throughout studying human history The Architect and his lovely assistant learned through struggle and feelings of 'greater purpose' life would seem more real for humans Neo stopping the Sentinels and going into a coma (waking up for the second time), along with Agent smith learning about the 2nd matrix and becoming involved in it just reinforces that idea. To those people who think Zion is real answer this question Why would the Architect purposly free people's minds and lose out on 250,000 'batteries' ? If only one Matrix existed he would never allow 'The One' to be freed and free so many people. However this way with people being 'freed' from the matrix into Zion they believe they are free and fully accept the 2nd Matrix. The Architect himself said it took many tries to create and figure out something like that, and he had help from a female. Matrix being 'much older than you think' would enforce that idea since it's so perfected 99.9% of people accept it. |
17th May 2003, 16:43 | #112 | |
|
Quote:
|
|
17th May 2003, 16:59 | #113 | |
|
Quote:
firstly you need to listen a little closer to the dialogue of the movie, if the current matrix is the sixth version and zion has been destroyed 5 times previously, how could it be real? how could a big ass city in the centre of the earth be destroyed and rebuilt 5 times if it was real? and another scene you must have missed was smith infected Bane in the matrix, then Bane in zion carving shit into his hand then trying to knife Neo from behind but was interupted by the kid who woke himself up from the matrix, and then tyring to get his captain to volunteer to go on the mission to assist the neb, then after someone prematurely activates the emp thwarting the zion defense plan and Bane is the only survivor who is in a coma like Neo.... look at the facts, they add up Last edited by blur^ : 17th May 2003 at 17:01. |
|
17th May 2003, 17:06 | #114 |
|
What if the architect was lying? what if he was another program HMMM?
|
17th May 2003, 17:07 | #115 |
|
i thought the movie was pretty good, bit of a lull after the first fight scene, but good after that. twins could've been used more though. the brawl in the park was pretty fuckin cool. oh and to whoever said how can he suddenly change direction when he gets punched- he can fly. taking a wild stab in the dark here but i think if he can fly he can also change direction when he is flying. the chase on the ducatti fuckin ownzored too
and as for the matrix in a matrix thing, it seems plausible. its as though he finally twigs onto it at the end which is why he knows the squids will stop, and why he then falls into a coma. the architect drops some hints if you actually listened. i do have one complaint though- he fights like batman. hes weilding a dirty great sword yet he isnt actually killing people (well he does after a bit but it doesnt exactly seem intentional except for the squashing with the giant mace thing) whereas in the first one he seemed only too happy to empty a few clips into some innocent security guards. |
17th May 2003, 17:13 | #116 |
|
I don't think Neo stopping those sentinels and then going into a coma was him "waking up" or else he would have disappeared. I think it was just different... he was in the Matrix, and then he woke up to it and could see the code, etc. and manipulate things. But in the Zion Matrix, he hadn't woken up fully to the code and all that, so stopping the sentinels was a shock to his system or something. I dunno, I'm sort of making this up as I go along.
|
17th May 2003, 17:26 | #117 | |
|
Quote:
__________________
|O-bot|-fred 'fred is not dead, fred is resurrected!' "It is only in the tales humans tell, that the hunters win in the end." |
|
17th May 2003, 17:31 | #118 | |
|
Quote:
After all if Zion is allowed and in fact encouraged to exist by the machines then all the information that is in the 'Zion historical archive' is what has been allowed to be there by the machines, yes? The humans don't know anything for certain. The second film (yet to see it yet) seems to imply that the rabbit hole goes much deeper than even Morpheus knows...
__________________
|O-bot|-fred 'fred is not dead, fred is resurrected!' "It is only in the tales humans tell, that the hunters win in the end." |
|
17th May 2003, 17:37 | #119 |
|
Hmm well.
I thought it was ok, the freeway fight with Morpheus and the Agent was the best of the lot really (i.e. people actually fell over occasionally), the rest were a bit over the top and dragged on leaving me thinking 'enough with the fighting, advance the plot!'. Very cool sword attack on car Just remember that non-obsessed non-geeks also are going to watch this movie, so some of the theories about how stuff might be that I have read here are pretty complex and would open up more plot ends to tie off. a) there is a matrix within a matrix (zion). Maybe, it'd be a hell of a lot of plot skew and I really hope this wasn't the case because the movie was a bit disjointed as it was. b) the matrix and the real world are somehow crossing over a bit One of those two anyway On the whole though, the first movie was a lot better and relied on a lot less gimmickry to make it good. |
17th May 2003, 17:38 | #120 |
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
|
What is the Reloaded?
This is just something I bashed out in 10 minutes after getting home from the movie, it only exists so I could extrapolate some ideas and take a look at where the Wachowskis are going with the next film. Before you read this, I realize that some people hated the movie and some loved it, I thought it was O.K. and its definitely left enough up in the air to give revolutions room to be a good film. These are just random ways of looking at the film, don't be offended if you disagree with any of them. Hell, I don't agree with all of them. __________________________________________________ Index: (Indexed this speel as it turned out far longer than I expected.) 1.) The little details. 1.1) The Rave/Orgy 1.2) Got Root? 2.) Zion. 2.1) Zion is bugfix. 2.2) They never made it back. 2.3) Zion is real(a). 2.4) Zion is real(b). 3.) Who is Neo anyway? 4.) What is the Matrix anyway? __________________________________________________ 1.) The little details: 1.1) The Rave/Orgy: While most people disliked this scene for various reasons (too long, no plot development, too cheesy, etc) I disliked it because it failed at telling the story it was trying to get across. On a basic level the rave scene shows a sharp contrast between humanity and ‘the machines’, the machines showing a cold, calculating exterior while the humans are shown as a writing mass of flesh and emotion. On a (slightly) deeper level the rave/orgy scene enforces the fact that the Zion culture is trying to climb back from the abyss of extinction. They're procreating with so much energy and vigor as the future of their species depends on it. 1.3) Got Root?: Just a minor point but there are very few films who use tech. in a way that would work in the 'real world(tm)'. Everything is this screengrab is possible in the 'realworld' (hell they're even using NMAP and an SSH1 CRC exploit), the only flaw you could pick is that they're 'hacking' a internal IP address (10.2.2.2) but they could already be inside the network in question or it could just be akin to the 555-xxxx prefix used for phone numbers in movies so that there's no chance of it being a real world phone number (or IP in this case). ______________________________________________ 2.) Zion. We can speculate, but we weren’t given enough detail to be 100% sure of the direction the Wachowskis are going to take in Revolutions, here are the most likely choices: 2.1) Zion is bugfix. Zion is a primary (or secondary depending how you look at it) Matrix, designed to capture the 1% of the population who ‘awaken’ and fool them into thinking they’ve escaped the matrix when all they’ve actually done is manage to escape into an ‘overflow’ Matrix put there as a bugfix to prevent that 1% from waking up ‘all the way’. 2.2) They never made it back. Their final ‘return’ to Zion was somehow hijacked, so the first 2 hours of Zion were real but the last 20 minutes are just a simulation. 2.3) Zion is real(a). Zion is the real world and the sentinels that get taken down at the end weren’t taken down by Neo but by an EMP from either the botched counter-attack or from Naiobi's ship and just happened to coincide with Neo confronting the machines (his ‘feeling’ could be completely unrelated to the machines going down.) 2.4) Zion is real(b). Zion is the real world and through his ‘mingling’ with Agent Smith inside the Matrix he now as the ability to somehow take down the machines, __________________________________________________ 3.) Who is Neo anyway?: Neo is "The One", "The One" is a figure that has arisen with each Matrix incarnation (6 at current count) and who is seemingly always touted as humanities savior by "The Oracle" (a program of the Matrix). What better way to keep the population of Zion under control that to provide a 'Savior" program to give the 1% that 'escape' enough hope to pacify them a little and stave off desperation for a while. "The One" had powers that no human has ever had (apart from the previous 'ones'), each time he 'arises' he rises oblivious to his true purpose only to be told near the end of his journey what his real reason for existence is. But this time something went wrong that no-one planned for, he fell in love and disrupted the events that had gone so well the previous 5 times (Or did he, maybe things are still going along exactly as the Matrix wants.) This plays well with the fact that when Neo (or his program if this is correct) 'mingles' with Agent Smiths program he leaves an aftertaste on Smith so that Smith is unwilling to be deleted, a trait that is very strongly embedded in Neos program. The fact that Neo has such masterful control over the Matrix to the point where he can bring back the dead would also be more easily explained if he is in fact a construct of the Matrix himself. __________________________________________________ 4.) What is the Matrix anyway?: There are ways of looking at the Matrix universe:
You could even speculate that just as the Reloaded title signified that we learnt that the Matrix has been 'reloaded' 6 times that in 'Revolutions' we may see the film ending with the Matrix 'Reloading' and entering its seventh 'Revolution'. Bring on Revolutions and lets see where the Wachowskis are taking this. |