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7th December 2011, 14:42 | #41 |
Stuff
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there goes "affordable" education
govt are playing off nz like a pack of cards to the world. key will play nz off on the markets.
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My degree of sarcasm depends on your degree of stupidity. |
7th December 2011, 14:49 | #42 | |
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I've got no problems with teachers being held up to standards, I just hope those standards are carefully considered and don't result in a 'teach the test to keep your job' mentality. What skeeves me out about Public-Private is children's education being treated as an economic resource to be exploited for profit.
Current Private schools are an excellent case point for competition at the top end providing the best possible education. By showing they give the best results they can charge the most from parents, and fair enough. But by giving private outfits $X per student there is no incentive to compete on grades beyond a pass level, so if they whittle down the costs they'll be making a profit. Except if it were a state institution that excess would likely go to benefiting students (leftypinkfantasy maybe..) rather than benefiting investors. Does the state education system need more accountability? Sure, no question. But I don't think it's valid to use current private schools as a model for what public-private would be. Quote:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/educ...n-NCEA-results ------- re: nat standards I remember sitting SAT tests when I was a kid, were they in any way similar? Is the key difference the publication of the results? |
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7th December 2011, 14:50 | #43 |
Marginal Poster
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everyone is treating teaching as a manufacturing type of job. its not. the onus is on the students to do well, the teachers are only supposed to be guides. how do you differentiate between a good teacher with crap students and an awful teacher with decent students?
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7th December 2011, 14:57 | #44 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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7th December 2011, 14:58 | #45 | |
Nothing to See Here!
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7th December 2011, 15:03 | #46 | |
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7th December 2011, 15:11 | #47 | ||
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It's all to do with Social identity theory ie, developing a sense of self based on a positive cultural identity that you can value and be proud of rather than assuming the negative role which society/media/statistics presents. An Iwi charter school could provide this more effectively than public schools with other kids that might not want to get immersed lol.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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7th December 2011, 15:13 | #48 | |
Mrs Colin Farrell
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You also can't measure a teacher's success based on the success of their students BUT WAIT - an excellent teacher at a low decile school will NEVER be able to achieve the same results as an excellent teacher at a high decile school. The low decile teacher can make huge progress with her students but that progress will never be as impressive as the other teacher. There are many factors that come into play, as already mentioned by fixed_truth's quote about 60% of achievement coming from non-school factors. Steiner schools are naturally pissed at having to implement the national standards. They don't start teaching kids how to read until they're 7, so those children are going to be identified as badly failling for a few years. Ok flame away. This was hammered out quickly so no doubt I could have expressed myself and my argument better. Note - there are plenty of shit teachers around. There needs to be a thorough overhaul of the teaching profession, but it needs to be far more comprehensive than simply "their students aren't achieving, fire their ass". Also, teachers colleges are just concerned with churning out graduates. Tighten up the colleges and tighten up on the teachers who are out there teaching, that'd be a start. |
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7th December 2011, 16:14 | #49 |
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"It's all to do with Social identity theory ie, developing a sense of self based on a positive cultural identity that you can value and be proud of rather than assuming the negative role which society/media/statistics presents. "
Hey if that works,then fine.As long as they don't blame the imperialist colonialist honkeys if it falls through. |
7th December 2011, 17:11 | #50 |
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Under this new scheme would it be somehow possible for NZGames to run a school?
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Stay shook. No sook. |
7th December 2011, 17:50 | #51 |
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Ooo, who would the staff be?
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7th December 2011, 17:55 | #52 | |
SLUTS!!!!!!!
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kids should be reading BEFORE they get to school, not 2 years after they start.....
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Slow internet is worse than no internet. It's like putting your penis in once and then being required to make out for 2 hours --Matt "The Oatmeal" Inman |
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7th December 2011, 18:34 | #53 |
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Kids can be taught to read before school, but I'm not sure there's any evidence which suggests this is the best path towards academic excellence (if that's your desired outcome.)
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Stay shook. No sook. |
7th December 2011, 20:05 | #54 | |
Love, Actuary
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The reality is that meaningful measurement is entirely straightforward as is the assessment of the measurement. Truly understanding why this is so is undoubtedly well beyond the educational limits and interests of most people. However, the skills needed to somewhat appreciate this could be taught successfully during the training of most teachers. Perhaps this needs to happen in the future? Parents face the same understanding dilemma too. The school my eldest goes to compensates for this with a one page cheat-sheet to explain how to interpret the information provided for each child. |
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7th December 2011, 21:47 | #55 | |
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that is assuming you know how to teach a kid to read and dont use stupid shit repetitive books about jane and/or watching dogs run. |
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7th December 2011, 22:13 | #56 | |
Mrs Colin Farrell
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8th December 2011, 07:39 | #57 | |
Love, Actuary
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There are some very nice techniques that could be applied to the results of entire classes to tease out which teachers are objectively incompetent having corrected for the specific learning challenges presented to them each year. The bottom ten percent of teachers should be very worried about this; oh wait, they already are, aren't they? |
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8th December 2011, 13:10 | #58 | |
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Last edited by HO-Hoon : 8th December 2011 at 13:13. |
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8th December 2011, 13:34 | #59 | |
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I view this as sop being thrown to ACT to keep them relevant next election. LOOK, LOOK, OUR POLICIES GOT ENACTED! (We're still relevant, honest...) Or, National wants ACT to be the stalking horse / scapegoat for right-wing policies it wants to try that may prove unpopular with the centrist voting public. Anyway, I don't really see how we can expect schools to cater for parental neglect/abuse and unstable home situations.
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So the perkbuster Hide abusing perks, crimbuster Garrett actually a crim - what's next? Roger Douglas is secretly poor? --Saladin |
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8th December 2011, 13:47 | #60 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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This has EVERYTHING to do with MMP. It's how the system is intended to work. MMP is a German system created after WWII with the Nazi Party in mind - it was specifically designed to make it near-impossible for one single political party to gain a majority in Parliament, and thus force large parties to do deals with smaller parties to pass legislation. This is EXACTLY how MMP is supposed to work. It's just that the concession made to a smaller party is one you don't like. |
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8th December 2011, 14:12 | #61 | |
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8th December 2011, 14:13 | #62 | |
Stunt Pants
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Sure, kids learn at different paces. But surely this is not ideal? A year 8 kid should be learning at a year 8 level, a year 10 at year 10 level etc. My experience of school was that dumb kids would either get mostly ignored by the teacher and the kid would be no better off, or the kid would get taught to dumb kids level and would never learn or achieve at a level consistent with all the other kids his age. The teacher can explain the lack of achievment by saying "oh, he just learns at a different pace to everyone else!" That's a cop-out from a lazy teacher. We don't want that. We want national standards to force the teachers to pull the kid up by his bootstraps and get him learning at the same pace as everyone else. Of course, it's not always being dumb that is the problem. Let me tell you a little story (you like stories). I spent most of my first year or so of school in Australia. We came back to NZ and when I was about seven years old it was decided that my reading level wasn't where it should be for my age. Perhaps that was because the Aussies were shit teachers, perhaps I just wasn't paying attention... whatever. I was made to have one-on-one levels with this teacher I didn't like a whole lot, reading little kids books, having individual words written on cards and arranging them into sentences, bring that stuff home and going through it with my impatient father and doing it all again. I really disliked doing it but by the end of it I'd reached the right reading level and quite enjoyed reading after that. My level of English was probably a bit higher that other kids in my class since then. I was fortunate that the teachers identified the problem and corrected it. It would've been way too easy for them to say "He's just learning at his own pace!" and not have done anything about it. There's a lot of kids these days that just don't have good literacy. The go through our education system and are still barely literate at the end of it. This is in the news headlines at the moment. I believe this is the bullshit 'learning at their own pace' argument in effect. I also think that if you don't take kids aside and sort out their learning, then that really is a one size fits all approach.
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8th December 2011, 14:18 | #63 | |
Stunt Pants
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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8th December 2011, 14:20 | #64 | |
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As for seeing how reading before you get to school being bad... well, I don't think it's bad as such, but it is by no means automatically good and the developmental consequences aren't necessarily what you might hope for depending on what you value.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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8th December 2011, 14:37 | #65 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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I was reading at "competent adult" level (if not higher) before I started school. Soon after starting primary school I remember being asked as a new-entrant kiddie if I liked books and replying "yeah, I just read Peter Benchley's 'Jaws', it was aight." (or however I phrased it as a 5-year-old). I do recall being puzzled by Benchley's use of the words "torso" and "orgasm" since they were outside my vocab at the time, and having to look them up in a dictionary.
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MHG, now 6, strikes me and his teachers as being a very bright little fellow and he is an advanced reader for his age, but he's nowhere near how I was reading at 5. Is that bad? Is it bad of me to expect him to? I think he's doing great, and I'm objectively very happy with how he's learning, especially since getting him out of a shit-ass mainstream school with a shit teacher. |
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8th December 2011, 14:37 | #66 | |
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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8th December 2011, 14:48 | #67 | |
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8th December 2011, 15:49 | #68 |
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+1 to reading before school. From age 4-12 almost every sunday morning my dad dragged my brother and I to the takapuna library to borrow books/read (not books from the kids section..).
I always figured it was to get us out of the house so mum could have peace and quiet. |
8th December 2011, 16:09 | #69 | |
Stunt Pants
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What does being able to read before you start school actually do for you? I'm hoping for a better reason than "You'll be ahead of your school mates!" or "you won't be one of the 5 year old that reads slowly!" or "you'll feel choice when you read an adult novel!"
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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8th December 2011, 16:33 | #70 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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[quote=CCS]What does being able to read before you start school actually do for you?
No idea. I'm not sure it improved my early school experiences. Quote:
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8th December 2011, 16:34 | #71 |
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Parents teaching their kids to read ensures that a lack of literacy won't impact their ability to learn in the school environment and reduces the risk that any shortcomings in literacy wont be picked up, in the event that little Johnny gets a series of crap teachers.
Edit: Obviously there are a number of other things that can get in the way of a good education. But like Ab says.. one does what one can. Last edited by pxpx : 8th December 2011 at 16:36. |
8th December 2011, 16:47 | #72 | |
talkative lurker
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Broke my addiction! Bye bye Eve, hello Minecraft. Wait... >_< |
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8th December 2011, 17:31 | #73 | |
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like pxpx said, you're basically eliminating one of the (many) factors that can fuck up a kids education. although being able to read didnt change the fact that i have the attention span of a goldfish for anything i find boring (which was 90% of everything we did in high school) |
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8th December 2011, 17:38 | #74 | |
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So the perkbuster Hide abusing perks, crimbuster Garrett actually a crim - what's next? Roger Douglas is secretly poor? --Saladin |
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8th December 2011, 17:54 | #75 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Goldsmith's in Parliament now as a List MP. If he'd won Epsom he'd be in as Epsom's MP but ACT would not have crossed the 5% threshold, and Banks would not be in.
Banks wins? Epsom has Banks + Goldsmith on the List. Goldsmith wins? Epsom has Goldsmith only. |
8th December 2011, 18:36 | #76 | |
Love, Actuary
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Having said that, Kids start school late in NZ and so reading lessons from age 4 or so if you want to would be okay. With our eldest we used the Oxford Reading Tree books (bought from Amazon UK) but we did not start until she had started school. Six months after starting her reading age had gone to 8 - 9. |
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8th December 2011, 18:45 | #77 | ||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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8th December 2011, 18:46 | #78 | |
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So the perkbuster Hide abusing perks, crimbuster Garrett actually a crim - what's next? Roger Douglas is secretly poor? --Saladin Last edited by Cynos : 8th December 2011 at 18:48. |
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8th December 2011, 19:02 | #79 | |
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The possible variation is, if National won the electorate then there's a further 1% wasted vote to ACT, which means National might have gained 1 mp because their share of votes that counted would be higher, but it could just as easily gone to any other party above the threshhold depending on the calculation of who gets the "rounding difference". |
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8th December 2011, 20:08 | #80 | |
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So the perkbuster Hide abusing perks, crimbuster Garrett actually a crim - what's next? Roger Douglas is secretly poor? --Saladin |
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