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Old 11th May 2022, 12:32     #5561
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
Plenty of Maori have European lineages, so not sure how the above can have any weighting.
It's about not assuming all Maori have cultural needs but also having the knowledge & skills to identify when someone does & how to meet these needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Yeah, but it's way deeper than a cup of tea. The more you retain your non-Western-Christian indigeneity, the less likely you are to trust anyone with whom you don't share family ties. Trusting institutions and respecting strangers based on their qualifications are alien concepts if you've grown up immersed in a non-Western-Christian culture. If you can't show how you're related to me, I don't care how many biscuits you bring me.
For sure. This is why affirmative action can be justified. It's quite common for Maori students to go through medical school & then practice in the communities they're from rather than chasing the money overseas.
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Old 11th May 2022, 12:49     #5562
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
It's about not assuming all Maori have cultural needs but also having the knowledge & skills to identify when someone does & how to meet these needs.
It's almost as if you're stating that people have different needs and aren't some collective. This differs from your other perspective on ol' whitey. Interesting.
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Old 11th May 2022, 12:51     #5563
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The negative flipside is that the more traditionally Maori your community is, the more instantly trust is accorded to ANYTHING that comes from someone within the family, hapu, or iwi. This has been a disaster for COVID response because it takes just one antivax rant from crazy Auntie Karen to undo an entire government outreach programme.
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Old 11th May 2022, 12:58     #5564
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Anyway, back to Nanaia Mahuta - I guess my reaction to this revelation that she's been pushing her family members into senior roles in government bodies so that taxpayer money flows into her own networks is a combination of Westernbrain "OMG CORRUPTION" and Maoribrain "well.. duh".
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Old 11th May 2022, 14:11     #5565
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
It's almost as if you're stating that people have different needs and aren't some collective. This differs from your other perspective on ol' whitey. Interesting.
It's almost as if you're stating that we shouldn't treat everyone equally. Ka Pai.

Being Maori (Ethnicity) is one of a number of factors that are part of what shapes an individual's values, beliefs and behaviours.
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Old 11th May 2022, 15:12     #5566
_indigo1
 
Here's a question for you - is it possible to be a Maori athiest?
(or, a non-'useless' Maori, as Willie so eloquently put it)
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Old 11th May 2022, 15:22     #5567
fixed_truth
 
As far as I know the only prerequisite is to have a line of decent
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Old 11th May 2022, 15:24     #5568
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Here's a question for you - is it possible to be a Maori athiest?
(or, a non-'useless' Maori, as Willie so eloquently put it)
Can you rephrase the question? I don't think I get what you're really asking.
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Old 11th May 2022, 15:32     #5569
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Can you rephrase the question? I don't think I get what you're really asking.
I can't rephrase it without giving away a key part of the potential discourse that I wanted to come out on it's own. I don't want to taint the direction of discussion.
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Old 11th May 2022, 15:40     #5570
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
OK then my starter answer is "of course, I am Maori (Ngai Tahu, Ngati Whakaue) and I don't believe in gods, thus it is possible to be a Maori atheist, QED"
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Old 11th May 2022, 16:00     #5571
_indigo1
 
Ok,
Often times the word atheist is used in a different way though.
Not as much it's hard and fast definition of not believing in deities; but moreso to denote one does not follow any particular doctrine.

For example a common use of the word atheist that I have broadly seen used would also preclude one being a Buddhist.

I know this is wrong usage. But I often find it used in this way so that is the word I intentionally chose in my previous post.

Does that change your answer any?

Last edited by _indigo1 : 11th May 2022 at 16:02.
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Old 11th May 2022, 16:14     #5572
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Yeah, nah, I think the vagueness introduced by such a broad definition of atheist renders it useless. I think atheism is what it says on the box: lack of belief in gods. Although I take that to mean "supernatural beings"; I also don't believe in the tooth fairy or taniwha or the rainbow serpent or werewolves.
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Old 11th May 2022, 16:53     #5573
_indigo1
 
Well fine then, I mean I directly said what I was intending for the use of word atheism - but if you want to throw that out, then use the word irreligious - which is what many laymen mean when they say atheism.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:29     #5574
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If you can't show how you're related to me, I don't care how many biscuits you bring me.
Random Maoribrain moment just last week.

New lady joined the office team, she's Scottish, everyone in the same place for the first time in a while, office small talk to welcome her, mentioned I was a Kiwi with Scots connections on my Dad's side, she asked how, without thinking I responded "my Dad's mother's mother's father's mother's father was a Burns from Argyll" and there was like a silent record scratch moment and I remembered that I am in Australia and not everyone carries 10 generations of family tree in their heads at all times just in case they need to find family connections with anyone they meet.
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:05     #5575
xor
 
Must be pretty cool tracking your family roots that far back and learning some of the stories and history.
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:35     #5576
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Some of the pakeha branches are pretty short, which I guess is an aspect of this recent discussion about individualism/collectivism and culture. Like, I know my middle name is Haereroa because that was my dad's mum's dad's dad's dad's mum's dad's brother's name and he adopted my dad's mum's dad's dad's dad after HIS dad died unexpectedly. I know that my mum's dad's dad's mum was executed by the British Army and buried in a mass grave at Orakau. The brown branches of the whanau never forget anything. On the white branches it's "Hey, Gran's maiden name was Sheehan, right? That sounds Irish, was her family from Ireland?" "No idea."
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:58     #5577
_indigo1
 
Any thoughts on why that is?
(the short familial memory of, as in your example, Kiwis of European descent and Maori)

Perhaps an artefact of immigration to NZ and having to cut ties with relatives (communication being what it was back then), multiplied by a few generations?
But then that would mean that mainland Europeans would have rich familial ties - which I don't believe is so much the case at gross assumption?
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:08     #5578
Lightspeed
 
Israel kills an Al Jazeera journalist, so Al Jazeera is blasting Israel's dirty laundry 24 hours.
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:09     #5579
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Any thoughts on why that is?
(the short familial memory of, as in your example, Kiwis of European descent and Maori)

Perhaps an artefact of immigration to NZ and having to cut ties with relatives (communication being what it was back then), multiplied by a few generations?
But then that would mean that mainland Europeans would have rich familial ties - which I don't believe is so much the case at gross assumption?
Have you ever considered getting an education if you're so interested?
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:28     #5580
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Have you ever considered getting an education if you're so interested?
An education on Ab's family history.
Where do I sign up?

Honestly lightspeed. Just shut up.

Last edited by _indigo1 : 12th May 2022 at 15:29.
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:31     #5581
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

No, you.
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:41     #5582
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
No, you.
Honestly it just comes across as petty and pathetic you trying to gatekeep discussion by telling someone to go get educated instead. Clearly you have some angst issues to work out - but leave me out of them.
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:50     #5583
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Israel kills an Al Jazeera journalist, so Al Jazeera is blasting Israel's dirty laundry 24 hours.
No no, I heard she died after being struck in the head by a bullet
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Old 12th May 2022, 15:54     #5584
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Honestly it just comes across as petty and pathetic you trying to gatekeep discussion by telling someone to go get educated instead. Clearly you have some angst issues to work out - but leave me out of them.
If you're participating, you're participating. There is an ignore function if you're sensitive to my responses to your comments.

You come across like many kiwis who confuse their ignorance for knowledge, who have no qualms asserting their worldview as if it doesn't have an impact on others.
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Old 12th May 2022, 18:25     #5585
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
No no, I heard she died after being struck in the head by a bullet
It looks like Israel has already had to shift tact on how they respond to the shooting. I wonder how long the news will be off for, and how hard they'll go in weaving the shooting into their narrative about Israel.

I can't imagine this pays off for Israel, but it could also show the limits of Al Jazeera's relevance if ultimately there are no consequence for the shooting, and impunity remains.
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Old 13th May 2022, 11:24     #5586
_Incubus_
 
Love this Tolkieneque anti Labor ad from the Libs...very amusing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0MMrmteZfk&t=2s
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Old 13th May 2022, 11:51     #5587
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Oh my god did some child do that on a warez copy of 3DSMax on Windows 95?
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Old 13th May 2022, 22:00     #5588
_Incubus_
 
I was thinking Amiga 1000 era graphics...the message was a joke. So sick of 'the other side sucks so vote for us' messaging. Would like to hear about what each side is actually going to do if they win...
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Old 14th May 2022, 11:05     #5589
Lightspeed
 
Fucking hell, I can't believe the Israelis attacked the journalist's funeral procession. How hateful can you be?

Well, except I can believe it, given the non-response to the event. American citizens can't be going around reporting on the atrocities perpetrated by friends of the US and still expect the protections that come with citizenship.
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Old 14th May 2022, 11:47     #5590
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Oh yes, those lovely Israelis. But don't you dare form an opinion of them.
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Old 16th May 2022, 12:54     #5591
xor
 
All In The (Mahuta) Family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Anyway, back to Nanaia Mahuta - I guess my reaction to this revelation that she's been pushing her family members into senior roles in government bodies so that taxpayer money flows into her own networks is a combination of Westernbrain "OMG CORRUPTION" and Maoribrain "well.. duh".
https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/a...mahuta-family/
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Old 16th May 2022, 18:14     #5592
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Just so there's no confusion because of my newfound reputation for leftist wokeness: Mahuta's conduct IS corruption, it's anathema to our system of parliamentary democracy, and she should be fired or jailed. That I understand her doing it does not mean I condone it.
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Old 16th May 2022, 18:28     #5593
Lightspeed
 
Yeah and that would happen if we were running things all above board, with legitimacy and integrity as our highest values.
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Old 16th May 2022, 19:42     #5594
_indigo1
 
Oh Ab, you gave me the feels!
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Old 17th May 2022, 00:26     #5595
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Yeah and that would happen if we were running things all above board, with legitimacy and integrity as our highest values.
didn't you hear? that stuff's for squares, daddy-o. The hip cats are grooving to co-governance now.

It was never mentioned in any election platform and nobody voted for it, but hey. That's old-fashioned thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Oh Ab, you gave me the feels!
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Old 17th May 2022, 08:05     #5596
fixed_truth
 
Co-governance models have been used by both Labour & National governments. It's about how far it should be extended.
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Old 17th May 2022, 13:27     #5597
Lightspeed
 
If one was looking for legitimacy and integrity, where would it be found?

At every level it's graft and exploitation. People fighting over who is worst.
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Old 17th May 2022, 16:53     #5598
_indigo1
 
Crabs in a bucket baby!
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:59     #5599
Cyberbob
 
Turkey blocks start of Nato talks over Finland and Sweden's applications to join.

Turkey's demands?
  • NATO should classify not only the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) but also the Syrian Defense Forces (SDF) and the Fetullah Terrorist Organization (FETO) in the alliance’s list of threats.
  • The United States should then extradite Pennsylvania-based dissident cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey.
  • All NATO members, including Sweden and Finland, must cease any activity by the PKK, SDF, or FETO on their territories.
  • The United States and other NATO bodies must lift all sanctions related to Turkey’s purchase of the S-400, including sanctions upon the Turkish Defense Industry Directorate.
  • Turkey would not only receive the new F-16s and upgrade kits for its existing fleet, but Turkey will also be able to rejoin the F-35 program from which it was expelled after activating the Russian S-400s.
  • United States would cease preventing Turkey from exporting military products containing Western components.
Almost nothing to do with Finland and Sweden, no delegations or official requests, it's just a list of demands.
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Old 19th May 2022, 13:18     #5600
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, Turkey is looking to get paid.
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