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Old 16th July 2000, 12:47     #41
purple+kush
 
Bluewink

Think of a dope plant.

If you grow one, in a place, where there is no wind, lots of sun, and amounts of water. It will grow well, but it wont be very strong.

If you grow the seeds of that dope plant on the top of some windy whore mountain, with very cold weather, varying sun, it will grow slowly but it will be very strong.

There a plenty of variations in between.

But along no course of its life, and all its offsprings lives, thats all it does, grow, and adapt to what wheather and the like is around.

It adapts to its conditions, same if we do weights, we get bigger, we dont evolve.

But saying humans came from apes, monkeys, what ever, it like saying the tomatoe plant came from the dope plant. They are very similar, but thats where it ends. One, for all of life, got people stoned, and maybe even their pets. The other, provided tomatoes to eat.

Just like humans, and apes.

You might prize yourself as an ape or monkey relitive, but I dont, never will, sorry.


 
Old 16th July 2000, 12:54     #42
Endymion
 
Post

Evolution occurs between generations. Genetic mutation happens all the time. The only reason it seems to take forever to happen is that it takes that long for it to happen to enough groups of people for it to be noticeable.

If someone mutates in a way that doesn't suit its environment, it will probably die. If the mutuation is harmless or good, it probably won't die.

And chiQ - breasts are a lot more than just a food source for infants.
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Old 16th July 2000, 12:55     #43
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Post

PK, how do you think the different varieties of pot came about? Mutations caused changes that were then selectively bred for, causing new strains. Pot plants have evolved too, from the same plants that hemp evolved from.

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Old 16th July 2000, 13:02     #44
Adunaphel
 
Post

"Boobies" as they are reffered to here... well.. my theroies

They are what they are, due to being considered "taboo" ...

In african/whereever countries where the woman "hang out" as it were... you dont see the men going round pointing and leering at em....

And as for Evolution Yeah , chances are we came from monkies.. (But who said Monkies didnt come from us? )

Devolution can happen too.

Creation - Ive had absolutly no proof of this, apart from some guys who wrote a book a few thousand years ago. . .. about Adam , Eve, and a talking snake .
Donno about you guys.. but, hey. im convinced! (Chuckle)

In short. Evolution is just Mutation that happens to work well for the species....




------------------
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All that is gold does not glitter.
Not all who wander are lost.



 
Old 16th July 2000, 13:12     #45
Endymion
 
Post

So why are they considered 'taboo'? If they're just another body part, why do you get arrested for walking around with them out in public?
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Old 16th July 2000, 13:15     #46
purple+kush
 
Post

Heh.

Youd be surprised at just how, 'non-existaint' that proof is, if you look in the right places, Adunaphel.

Yeah righto chiQ, pot is still pot, it isnt a monkey or an apple tree, is it.

You get different breed of humans too, but they are still human.

 
Old 16th July 2000, 13:19     #47
Endymion
 
Post

I dunno, yours is fairly different to mine.
__________________
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Old 16th July 2000, 13:29     #48
Marshall
Pwn*
 
Post

lol endymon.

I have noticed through this thread that while there are lots of theories being put up about evolution and the merits of these are being debated, there are not a lot of creadible theories being given by anyone that give a viable alternative solution.

I notice that this occurs in a lot of creationism (sp?!) / evolution threads where people will shoot down a theory that has creadibility but then turn around and support somthing which has little / no credit behind it



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Old 16th July 2000, 13:31     #49
Jingo
 
Post

One point.

Darwin's Theory of Evolution is just that. A theory. There isn't a way of proving that it is true without a whimsical shadow of a doubt. There's a lot of things that add up and make a little sense, but nothing that can be classed as 'evidence'.

So it _could_ be truth, or it might just be a lot of very coincedental coincedences
 
Old 16th July 2000, 13:34     #50
ePi
 
Post

Back to breasts...

If people wore gloves all the time, people would be attracted to hands, just like they are to breasts. If they were hanging out left, right and centre I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be so curious about them as we are today.

People were here from the start of time eh PK? So when did that happen, and how? How did we get "created"?
 
Old 16th July 2000, 13:42     #51
Endymion
 
Post

Hanging out left and right perhaps, but center?

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Old 16th July 2000, 13:53     #52
purple+kush
 
Post

God made us, noddy.

You might think humans became cleaver and 'evolved', but look at apes and monkeys. You really think humans are from there?

Theres a lot more to life than science.

Is there a scientific reasnoning for the wege board? Doubt it.

Its the devil, thats why, and that would disproove a lot of this bollocks science today.

Science, from people who are human: Every force has an equal and opposite reaction.

Ok, what about gravity?

What about the remains of Noahs arc?

BC, AD?

Ever been in a church, and sang? Felt what happens?

Science may proove a lot of things, but there are some things, it cannot begin to prove.

 
Old 16th July 2000, 14:00     #53
Marshall
Pwn*
 
Post

Where is god then PK

He sure as hell is not making much of an impression on the world. Show some actuall proof that he exsists.

I realise that there is no physical proof that evolution happens other than bone structures etc. But what proof is there that god exists.

It is a lot easier IMO to believe that gasses and stuff within the universe just happened to come together in a certain way and then life began (even if the possibility is slim the universe has been around long enough for just about every possible combination of what not to occur) then to believe that some great entity has made us.

If so what was he doing before he made us?
Where did dinosaur bones come from?
And where did god come from?
Has he just been sitting around for ever and ever?

Think about it too much and your head hurts :P

[This message has been edited by Marshall (edited 16 July 2000).]
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Old 16th July 2000, 14:15     #54
purple+kush
 
Post

I dont know what he was up to before he made us, god made dinosaurs, and the last two, god has been around for ever, simple.

Just like, space, goes on, for ever and ever.

 
Old 16th July 2000, 14:31     #55
cEvin-wErk
 
Post

yeh, sang in church many a time, it was boring and the songs sucked. Especially the repeating beats that brainwash you into thinking/donating
 
Old 16th July 2000, 15:15     #56
Yautja
 
Post

There is also Social evolution where learned traits are passed down make it more/less likely to survive. This kind of evolution happens more rapidly than genctic.

So lets say there's an social animal that's lead by it's dominate pair (call them rulers if you will). They're having problem's controling the lesser animals (think ill call them pesants).

Then they learn of this thing called religion, which gives pesants reason to be a productive member of society, and not worry about death all the time (seeming most of the animals died before 25). This stops alot of the crime and killing and makes their colony more efficent.

Now its not enought to just be more efficent you have to wipe out your competitor's also (survival of the fittest). So for about 10 centurys nothing but war's between different religion's occur.

Also sometimes it easier to just absorb a religion than kill it out, so they do that a bit too. And incorperate holiday's and ritual's from other religion's, eg a ritual of giving gifts to each other to mark the shortest day in the middle of winter (seeming it was hard ot measure when the shortest day was, it took about 3 days to they could tell the day's were getting longer).

Now at the present day these animal's have developed really efficent law enforcement so religion is no longer nessesary for the control of large populations and death dosn't happen until animals are really old, so death isn't much of a concern anymore.

And so the number of animals that beleive in religion rapidly decreases.

THE END

My $2 worth

[This message has been edited by Yautja (edited 16 July 2000).]
 
Old 16th July 2000, 15:21     #57
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Post

I thought you said you were going to shut up, PK?

I'm not going to rubbish what anyone believes in, but how about you go create an "Evolution vs Creation" thread instead of posting your godstuff in a discussion about breasts?

 
Old 16th July 2000, 15:31     #58
Icarus
 
Post

If god made dinosaurs how come there's no mention of them in the "bible", I'll tell you why: the ppl who wrote it knew nothing about dinosaurs, of course if god had anything to do with the bible and its not just the ramblings of men then they'd be in there wouldn't they?
I know what I evoloved from...sp00nt
 
Old 16th July 2000, 15:33     #59
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
Lightbulb

OK, I'm getting annoyed by what I'm reading here. Time for a bit of cut and paste

Evolution is a theory that has not yet been disproved. Evolution, in this context, is how life in general changes over time. There is little doubt that life on earth has changed over time. It is believed that 99% of all the species that have lived on earth, are now extinct. Extinction of a species is one way in which life evolves. That evolution occurs within populations of life forms on earth is well supported.
Scientists measure gene frequencies and protein structures in a group of organisms, and then see how those frequencies and structures change over time.

All life on earth, according to evolutionary theory, evolved from common ancestors. All life on earth is related to each other; we are all of the same family. Modern whales have hip bones in their flesh that they do not use because they do not walk. They probably evolved from mammals that did walk. Paleontologists have found a fossil whale called Pakicetus that has more developed rear legs. Older whales should look more like their ancestors if evolution is correct. Without evolution, we could not understand why whales have hip bones.

Another example is Archaeopteryx. This was a dinosaur that had feathered wings, like birds. Bird and dinosaurs have a common ancestry. This fossil has teeth, although no bird has teeth. It has the skeleton of a dinosaur, but the feathers of a bird. It shows that there was a time when the difference between birds and dinosaurs was not obvious.

There is a growing mountain of evidence that supports evolution. It will never be proven true because we can not know for sure. But by using the scientific method, we can make a good guess, based on careful observations of the earth as it exists today.


[This message has been edited by Ajax (edited 16 July 2000).]
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Old 16th July 2000, 16:22     #60
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Post

re. the relationship to apes thing, my way of seeing the theory is this: if you think of modern apes and man as siblings separated at birth, and raised in totally different conditions you might have an idea of how neither humans nor apes are anything like they were before the evolutionary split. The apes and humans are as different to the creatures they were as the siblings would be in middle age and as infants.

One may have been raised in poverty, in a thrid world country, deprived of resources to learn, health care, and suffering from malnutrition all it's life. The other may have been raised in luxury with education and good food and medical care at it's fingertips. The former might be small [less effective physically], ignorant [not have evolved in intelligence], superstitious [instinctive rather than cognitive], or even dead [extinct]. The other is likely to be quite the opposite. They would not have bourn a resemblance to each other since they were very young, yet they are still related.

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Old 16th July 2000, 16:59     #61
Ard Righ
 
Thumbs up

B00bs. Sp00ties. Tits. Breasts. A Rack. Whateva ya want to call 'em... they're just the stuff

Now, my theory on why exactly breasts are considered 'taboo' in 'civilised' societies, is due to the fact men like to 'protect' their women folk.

I think this came about due to men finding suitable mates, and then wanting to protect them from other males.
To do this, they covered them up in whateva they had available (animal skins, leaves, clothes etc), to make them look less attractive.

The passing males would see the females covered in ugly looking 'clothes' without all the interesting bits on show, and think the female was no good for breeding, and continue on their way.

SO, over time, these animal instincts to 'protect' the females from other males has simply evolved (hehe) into what we now consider 'civilised society'.

Males and females in the African Tribes, and the Pigmy Tribes of South America however, never saw the need for this, since the women folk were 'given' to the males in ceremonies of marriage, meaning other males were not allowed to compete for the females, thus no need to cover up the good bits

Of course, 'Womens Lib' solved a few of the taboos in 'civilised society' by burning bras etc, allowing women to wear skimpy clothing, and thus bringing back some of the more protective nature of males and their mates.

I think 'civilised society' is actually devolving currently. Women used to be completely covered head to toe in clothes.. not any more.
Great aye

<a href="http://www.challenge-au.com/spooties/">Sp00ties!</a>

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Old 16th July 2000, 17:02     #62
duckstab
 
Post

"Just like, space, goes on, for ever and ever."

Wrong pk, space is finite, Stephen Hawkings has written many papers on the fact that space, while still expanding outwards (to our knowledge) right now, it will HAVE to come back in to itself. I wish I had recorded the documentary where he explaned how it would happen and why.

PK Shush.

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Old 16th July 2000, 17:05     #63
Endymion
 
Post

We all know what happens when you listen to Stephen Hawkings.
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Old 16th July 2000, 17:12     #64
purple+kush
 
Post

There we go, an example of someone who trusts a book or atricle, over his own brain.

 
Old 16th July 2000, 17:21     #65
Endymion
 
Post

PK, the guy is one of the best authorities on the subject in the world... his brain knows a lot more about it than yours ever will, you're insane if you think that just because you don't know it it's not true.
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Old 16th July 2000, 17:25     #66
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Post

PK yeah you're right that just taking what you read on face value will cause misguided beliefs, but that's not all she wrote.

To base belief systems purely on your own cognitions will lead to skewed/biased/slanted views too.

Your staunch beliefs about homosexuality may be logical to you, but you admitted yourself that your real world experience of homosexuals and their nature is very narrow. That kind of exposure to the elements that factor into a theory is invaluable, so don't knock it too hard.

I personally think you write off other people's views a bit abruptly, based on what you've conjured up in your internal dialogues about subjects, rather than on real, life-experience, or theoretical study of the work of others.

Sure you may be right about creationism, but you continuously shoot down other peoples' theories and thoughts with very little useful information to back it up.

This breeds a lack of faith in your reasoning, meaning people don't take you as seriously as they would if you actually outlined strong rationales for your beliefs.

You can't just say "I know blah blah" and expect people to accept that in a public debate. If you give us strong arguments for your beliefs you won't get so much disparagement from other users.

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm really just trying to keep this as an informative, interesting thread rather than an all out war between you and the non-creationists. The fact that you're a creationist doesn't effect the way I perceive you, but your style of debate certainly effects how well your arguments are received.

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Old 16th July 2000, 17:47     #67
Farmer Joe
Word To Your Motherboard!
 
Post

mmmmmmmmmm boobies
 
Old 16th July 2000, 17:48     #68
ePi
 
Post

OMG.

Words can not explain what I'm thinking right now about PKs statements on this thread.
 
Old 16th July 2000, 17:58     #69
Farmer Joe
Word To Your Motherboard!
 
Post

Now for something completely different.

This is something I have very strong views about, but im going to restrain myself.

What I get sick of is all the creationists slagging off evolution when they know nothing about it apart from maybe 5th form science.

First lets look at the evidence of evolution...
<ul>[*]Fossils of humanoid forms that slightly differ over a period of time.[*]Tools that these primative humans used.[*]Shit load of books, phd's, etc. etc. etc.[/list]
and Creationism:

erm, the bible?

Think about it the bible was written when humans had no idea of what existed outside the earth's atmosphere (sure isn't heaven), what shape the earth was etc. etc. ...and were looking for answers.

Sure evolution is just a theory but if you've studied it in any detail it makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I could go into detail after details about evolution. i.e. natural selection, the 'out of Africa' debate. But what convinces me is the pysical evidence, when does a theory become a fact? when theres evidence to back it up.

nuff said.


 
Old 16th July 2000, 18:08     #70
Farmer Joe
Word To Your Motherboard!
 
Post

PK:
"God made us, noddy.
You might think humans became cleaver and 'evolved', but look at apes and monkeys. You really think humans are from there?"

Ok, so how do you explain the fossilised tools that have been found and dated. These tools are extremely primative, if the creationism theory holds then these tool wouldn't have existed right?

bah, its pointless.
 
Old 16th July 2000, 18:39     #71
Yautja
 
Post

Yes it is pointless
The retort for farmer joes comment is when god created the eath he/she/it created all the fossils/artifacts too and gave them carbon date's etc to make them look old.

sigh

 
Old 16th July 2000, 18:42     #72
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Post

PK sez: "There we go, an example of someone who trusts a book or atricle, over his own brain."

Well I'd rather trust the brain of Stephen Hawking who has been proven time and time again to be one of the greatest scientific minds around, on a subject he has done a LOT, and I mean a fucking ARSE LOAD of research into, than your "this is how it is" statement with absolutely no backing.

I'm just trusting my own brain to work out who's brains are better, Yours or Stephen's... Hmmmm, tricky stuff...
 
Old 16th July 2000, 19:09     #73
Beer
 
Post

I commend chiQ for her description outlined above, well said.

Anyhoo after the discovery of the "Gentic Dictionary" recently (on the news a few weeks ago) I heard an interesting point.

A researcher was talking about the similarities between different animals and mammals genetic make-up, and he said that whales and humans share about %30 genetic similarity, and tigers about %50, but apes/monkeys share about %99 of human genes.

Now they rekon they know our genetic make-up (about 3 billion combinations) so they know what we do share, but what would be really interesting and also VALUABLE to know, is what the remainding 1% difference actually is.

Well I think that it could be quite interesting.

And as for boobs, yeah, I like them.

Sp00t!

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SPOOTIES!
 
Old 16th July 2000, 19:46     #74
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Post

That, and if PK used his brain over a book (in this case, the bible) he might also have a different point of view.

 
Old 16th July 2000, 20:42     #75
Endymion
 
Post

PK smokes too much marijuana anyway.
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Old 16th July 2000, 23:24     #76
Boofhead
 
Post


poor PK

Yautja: The creationist argument for fossils is the Great Flood (with the Ark and Noah). That much water arriving in a hurry would have enough of an impact to bury alive many of the creatures found today in fossils... and there is evidence that fossils can form in a very short time (as opposed to the millions of years proposed by evolutionists)

As for genetic similarities between humans and apes... look at male and female humans. Our DNA must be practically identical, and yet people make millions selling books on how different we are . (ps. I read somewhere that the remaining 3% or whatever it was that the Genome Project couldn't include for whatever reason could be a DNA expression for a "soul" - thought provoking).

Another anomaly I found with the theory of evolution is genetic mutations. They just don't seem to happen very often, and when they do, aren't beneficial. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Sickle Cell Anemia.. which is only beneficial if you happen to have malaria.

Too little too late perhaps
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Old 17th July 2000, 00:11     #77
Yautja
 
Post

Yeah but the flood don't explain dinosaur fossil's and why carbon dating giving dates before this so called flood.

I find once you get past all the religous stuff in the bible it contain's a very crude form of science, explaining how people veiwed the world 2 thousand years ago.

With the noah's arc they found seashells on the tops of mountain's and the only way they could explain this was with a giant flood (plate tectonics btw).

 
Old 17th July 2000, 00:21     #78
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Post

It's pretty futile to argue against a group who can conveniently call on the "God did it..." reasoning. God made it look like we evolved, God made it look like dinosaurs were extinct long before we came about, God made it look like fossils were old, etc. They can say that about anything you present them with as evidence for anything they don't agree with.

They're exempt from needing to justify or call on reason for anything, because God did it.

It's like the old "because..." argument parents try and pull out: "Why can't I have a drink of water?" "Because...I say so." - There's no arguing with that folks

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Old 17th July 2000, 00:35     #79
Trigga*happY
 
Post

*sighs* TnT where are you =)
 
Old 17th July 2000, 00:45     #80
duckstab
 
Post

"All Bibles are translations of translations of no longer existing original writings and, unavoidably, reflect the politics and religious prejudices of the organization paying the cost of the translation.

Today, many narrow-minded people wield the Bible as some sort of razor with which to slash their enemies. Allowing those people to decide what is important in the Bible is dangerous to the freedom of individual thought. Though some of the Bible is abysmal and boring, much of it is entertaining and important reading."
-Uncle Willie (http://www.residents.com/app/notes/wormwood.html - Read it, it's very interesting)

The above is from the liner notes from an album by the Residents entitled Wormwood: Curious stories from the Bible.

I think it really does sum up the bible quite nicely. The above link provides an interesting read, it shows the flaws and the double standards which riddle the bible.

Example: Cain and Abel are brothers, two of the many children of Adam and Eve. Cain is a farmer and Abel is a herdsman. When they make their sacrifices to God, He only accepts Abel's meat offering, rejecting the grain of Cain. Well, Cain makes a meat offering by then killing Abel. Cain is upset about it but God is so impressed that He puts a mark on Cain to protect him from anyone who might try to avenge Abel's death.

Cain goes off, gets married, and becomes a successful businessman.

Look it up:

(http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Genesis+4)


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[This message has been edited by duckstab (edited 17 July 2000).]
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