Greens gain one, nats lose one

[Bent]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4769645a28435.html

Hooray! Interesting that more than a quarter of all special votes gave their party vote to the greens.

[MadMax]

last

[SpaceCowboy]

thats my uncle. hes been working for the UN and for the NZ foreign service for ages now. gonna send him a congratulatory email

[tarzan007]

The Bill and Ben party are now in 9th place, behind NZ First - the leader of the minor parties!

[The Edge]

What cracks me up is that Bill and Ben got more votes than the Alliance, and Bill and Ben aren't even a "real" political party!

[Farmer Joe]

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Bent

Interesting that more than a quarter of all special votes gave their party vote to the greens.

a lot of them will be overseas voters - so i reckon it's to do with the brain drain & also how a lot of kiwi's seem to have more of an appreciation of the importance of our clean green global image when they leave NZ.

[Ab]

That might reflect the phenomenon I spoke of in another thread - overseas voters can vote based entirely on principle. They don't have to care about real-life things like NZ unemployment or taxes or deficits, because those things happen to other people, not them.

[Haydos]

Is it principle? Chances are they know absolute fuck shit about the Greens and their policies (like 99% of people who vote for them) but vote for them regardless, because it's their charity/environment service for the 4 years.

Bit like Greenpeacers.

[Dazza]

People that are overseas tend to look at things over a long time frame, plus if you've lived overseas enough you do see that our environment is one of the things we do take for granted in NZ.

[Farmer Joe]

'100% Pure NZ' is kind of an ironic brand for a country that is so out of touch with environmental policy - especially now that National and Act are in power. NZ should be leading the environmental movement through new technology and the carbon trading market. Instead it's being laughed at. That's much more apparent when you're overseas.

I still can't believe that NZ has voted in a right-wing government at a time when a large chunk of the western world is heading in the opposite direction.

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by Haydos

Is it principle? Chances are they know absolute fuck shit about the Greens and their policies (like 99% of people who vote for them) but vote for them regardless, because it's their charity/environment service for the 4 years.

Bit like Greenpeacers.

lol @ you.

[Heresy]

Originally Posted by Farmer Joe

I still can't believe that NZ has voted in a right-wing government at a time when a large chunk of the western world is heading in the opposite direction.

They're more right-wing by comparison to NZ Labour, but still sit left of the US Democratic party.

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by Heresy

They're more right-wing by comparison to NZ Labour, but still sit left of the US Democratic party.

Hmm, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years with the Democrats. I'd agree that National are similar to US Dems but Act certainly isn't.

One of the things I like about the US De... Obama is policy/idea to push green technology. I think NZ is in a great place to pioneer new green technology/farming methods.

[Heresy]

Yep agreed. Act definitely aren't, although I'm keen to see (or dreading to see) how much influence they'll have.

[Haydos]

Ok, how many of you who voted Green can name 10 of their policies without going to the website or being bland such as "Uhm, Ban Pollution"

[Spoon1]

LOL. Insert National and "Um, change.". Tada!

[Haydos]

1. Highspeed Broadband
2. An efficiency review of government staff and capping staff numbers
3. Tax decrease
4. Bootcamps for repeat childhood offenders
5. Incentives for hard to staff areas such as Doctors by slashing money from their student loans
6. Cutting red tape in resource management act for building amongst other industries
7. Secure a consistent electricity supply in NZ through the year
8. Introduce tax credits for people earning under 50k a year who do not already receive some type of benefit
9. A review into government owned land that could be converted into affordable housing for first time home buyers
10. Supply more police for problem areas, such as South Auckland

Wasn't exactly hard. National actually release their policies and have them scrutinised. Greens? I'm still waiting

Hell, you can even go to their website if you must, you still won't come up with 10 clear policy shifts.

[Gentl e]

Originally Posted by Farmer Joe

Hmm, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years with the Democrats. I'd agree that National are similar to US Dems but Act certainly isn't.

One of the things I like about the US De... Obama is policy/idea to push green technology. I think NZ is in a great place to pioneer new green technology/farming methods.

Pioneer new green technology / farming methods huh, I thought New Zealand had already (and continues to do so) pioneered farming methods which are currently being sold overseas.

Why do green voters think they've suddenly struck onto something completely new? When they really haven't.

It grates me that the people overseas who made these votes are...

NOT FARMERS, therefore wouldn't have a fucking clue about it but are all "oh yeah, New Zealand should be leading the way!"

And double lol at the carbon trading idea which was invented by enron.

[Haydos]

The point remains, New Zealand is far too small to be able to lead the way in the environment. We're talking about reducing productivity and increasing taxation on that productivity in the name of a concept that has not been proven.

"Global Warming" can be considered false, as we're now entering a downcycle of temperature and have been since 1998.

So, now they call it climate change, rather than global warming.

There is no conclusive evidence that this is occuring, simply that we are experiencing a probable cycle of climate change as we know the world has been through time and time again in it's existence.

So, we're going to stunt growth and productivity by placing bans on these things, restricting business, restricting transport and demanding that we move forward as #1 in all things Green.

Funny that most of the people overseas vote for the Greens, isn't it. Being that they're not the ones who will suffer from decreased productivity and an overbearing Nanny State.

My point stands. I haven't found a single Green Supporter who can name even 5 of their policies.

[Hory]

Special Votes are from people overseas and people outside their electorate on polling day as well as those who enrolled less than a month before the election.

This group on average tend to be younger (and more Maori) than election day voters so therefore tend to support the Greens, Labour and the Maori Party more than the rest of the voting population does.

[Gentl e]

What are the splits on each of those demographics Hory, I bet the majority are in fact overseas voters....

[Interface-7]

The name, "Global Warming", is a misnomer. The term "Climate change" better reflects the potential impacts (both locally and internationally) of the long-term changes into the climate that is believe to be primarily caused by human activities.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/issues/climat...map/index.html

[Hory]

They haven't published the electorate breakdown of special votes for 2008 yet. But in 2005 it was 205,000 NZ vs 27,000 overseas special votes. I imagine the proportions will be similar this time.

[Haydos]

Originally Posted by Interface-7

The name, "Global Warming", is a misnomer. The term "Climate change" better reflects the potential impacts (both locally and internationally) of the long-term changes into the climate that is believe to be primarily caused by human activities.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/issues/climat...map/index.html

No, more so it allowed these zealous "scientists" to continue their almost religious "belief" that we were fucking with the climate, rather than realise throughout history, "climate change" is a naturally occuring thing.

[Gentl e]

Originally Posted by Hory

They haven't published the electorate breakdown of special votes for 2008 yet. But in 2005 it was 205,000 NZ vs 27,000 overseas special votes. I imagine the proportions will be similar this time.

I guess I lost that bet, what do I owe you?

[Interface-7]

Originally Posted by Haydos

No, more so it allowed these zealous "scientists" to continue their almost religious "belief" that we were fucking with the climate, rather than realise throughout history, "climate change" is a naturally occuring thing.

No, when the holes in the Ozone layers where first detected, and the polar ice was first observed to be melting at a greater increased rate the name made sense. However, and by the way this is the mean of the word misnomer, the name Global Warming become popular before its potential affects were known.

Now it's quite clear you've never meet a climate scientist before, but if you'd like you could OIA MFE and ask for their raw data on how they've arrived at such a conclusion based on the empirical evidence.

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by Gentl e

Pioneer new green technology / farming methods huh, I thought New Zealand had already (and continues to do so) pioneered farming methods which are currently being sold overseas.

You seem to have missed the part where I said GREEN farming methods.

Why do green voters think they've suddenly struck onto something completely new? When they really haven't.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about but let me make a few points. There has been very interesting advances in organic and sustainable farming methods. These aren't just for hippies with small vege patches - most farmers fertilise their land every year because without it they can't grow a good grass/clover crop. Why aren't more farmers experimenting with sustainable farming methods that actually increase soil fertility? Why isn't the government providing more incentives for farmers to experiment? I'm not sure if you've noticed but the price of fertiliser has almost trippled in the last year and the main sources of it are running out.

It grates me that the people overseas who made these votes are...
NOT FARMERS, therefore wouldn't have a fucking clue about it but are all "oh yeah, New Zealand should be leading the way!"

It grates me that you think people outside of NZ have no idea about farming. Being overseas is def. limiting in some ways but in others it's much easier to see the bigger picture.

[Trigga*happY]

Didn't Quinphos/Balance just post a massive loss on the back of a global price drop of fertiliser?

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by Haydos

No, more so it allowed these zealous "scientists" to continue their almost religious "belief" that we were fucking with the climate, rather than realise throughout history, "climate change" is a naturally occuring thing.

I'm so fucking sick of this naive point. Let's stop debating whether climate change is naturally occuring because at the end of the day it's irrelevant. The world has never experienced climate change with a population of 6.5 billion people.

Do you realise that almost half the worlds population relies on water from the Tibetan and Himalayan plateaus? And that by 2035 the glaciers that feed from these plateaus will be reduced by 80%? So regardless of who or what you think caused climate change I think you'll agree that anything we can do to slow it down or stop is good-thing right? Right?

[Trigga*happY]

Originally Posted by Farmer Joe

I'm so fucking sick of this naive point. Let's stop debating whether climate change is naturally occuring because at the end of the day it's irrelevant. The world has never experienced climate change with a population of 6.5 billion people.

Do you realise that almost half the worlds population relies on water from the Tibetan and Himalayan plateaus? And that by 2035 the glaciers that feed from these plateaus will be reduced by 80%? So regardless of who or what you think caused climate change I think you'll agree that anything we can do to slow it down or stop is good-thing right? Right?

I think the biggest arguements about what to do about how humanity effects the climate is around semantics. Your sentence there is close.

Side A
I think you'll agree that anything we can do to slow it down or stop is a good-thing right?

Side B
I think you'll agree that we should do anything to slow it down or stop it.

There are limits on what SHOULD be done to slow this process. If the cure can bring about the collapse of the worlds industries then how do we proceed? The reality is, that the resources required to maintain a growing population of 6.5billion people simply doesn't exist unless we revert to pre technology living, and i'm sure you can realise how impossible that would be.

Yes there are measures that everyone can take, but it has to be done carefully to avoid mass business closures and redundancy bringing poverty.

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by Trigga*happY

Didn't Quinphos/Balance just post a massive loss on the back of a global price drop of fertiliser?

I'm not too sure, I guess a lot of raw commodities are dropping at the moment. A good friend of mine runs a sheep farm near Kaikoura and the price went from about $200 > $700 a ton(?). It may have dropped again now.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Farmer Joe

Do you realise that almost half the worlds population relies on water from the Tibetan and Himalayan plateaus?

We're not worried about those people though...

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by CCS

We're not worried about those people though...

Heh, well no, but they might be wondering about NZ in a few years. Could be time to start hiding all the our water.

[CCS]

Meh, that's when we lock down our borders.

[Farmer Joe]

Originally Posted by CCS

Meh, that's when we lock down our borders.

With our awesome airforce and navy... oh wait. We could throw rocks at them.

[SpaceCowboy]

the water wars are coming.

[Hurtuso]

SPACE NIGGA! the United States of Space!

[Haydos]

Originally Posted by Interface-7

No, when the holes in the Ozone layers where first detected, and the polar ice was first observed to be melting at a greater increased rate the name made sense. However, and by the way this is the mean of the word misnomer, the name Global Warming become popular before its potential affects were known.

Now it's quite clear you've never meet a climate scientist before, but if you'd like you could OIA MFE and ask for their raw data on how they've arrived at such a conclusion based on the empirical evidence.

Sure. Please ask them to give empirical evidence dating back 500 years so we can have an accurate spread and not just isolated to "the industrial age"

Oh wait.

Edit: The reason for this, is because we've since seen the ozone layer recover, the polar ice caps grow thicker and temperatures drop worldwide in the last few years, completely bucking their theory that green house gases trapped in the atmosphere would make temperatures rise the world over.

Now they're settling for climate change because gosh darnit, we can't remember having this much rain apparently.

Much like recycling, which is an 8 billion a year industry in US, it's a crock of bullshit.

[Redneck]

Please provide all research materials used to develop that conclusion.