Matrix Reloaded * WITH SPOILERS* (you are warned) - Page 11

Fred · 21st May 2003, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Spoon1
She's a guide Fred, this has been said many times. By saying what she says to Neo at that time she guides him onto the path of becoming The One. There's nothing offhand about that whole conversation.

You perhaps miss my point in bringing this up. Oracles truthfully predict the future - they may be vague, unclear and generally difficult to understand except with hindsight but they always told the truth. The fact that the Oracle in the film arguably lied for me indicates she is not an Oracle, at least in the greek mythos sense. This in turn reinforces the linkage between the two films and makes it more likely the Oracle is a) part of the matrix control system and b) not the mother of the matrix as Neo thinks.

It also reassures me that the reveal that the Architect makes was always planned too. But then both films show a great deal of care was taken over them both in terms of what they show and where they are going.

Now we are on the verge of running around in circles on this issue. Suffice it to say I haven't been persuaded to think the Oracle wasn't at least lieing and lets leave it at that. What will be more interesting to ponder is where the third film is going to go.

rubberchicken · 21st May 2003, 20:26

Was the asian guy with the Oracle in the trailer (for Revolutions)?

If he doesn't play a greater part in things, then he was just another excuse for a fight scene. And what was up with that glowy shit he was made of in the code?

[TS]Sephiroth · 21st May 2003, 20:34

Has anyone mentioned about the "Matrix inside a matrix" why it was so?

Because if you listen to the Architect, it really kind of gives it away...

They made "The Matrix" inside the one they already had, to give people Choice.
Once they thought they were (or indeed, thought they were) "Out", then why would the subconsious keep trying?

Only the Uber-leet would "Wake up" twice, you see.

If someone has already said this, then disregard.

BadNova · 21st May 2003, 20:35

Quote:

Originally posted by rubberchicken
Was the asian guy with the Oracle in the trailer (for Revolutions)?

If he doesn't play a greater part in things, then he was just another excuse for a fight scene. And what was up with that glowy shit he was made of in the code?

That's Seraph, and yes, he's in the trailer for Revolutions. He glowed coz he was a program, not a human, I guess.

rubberchicken · 21st May 2003, 20:41

The agents in 1 didn't glow, especially not that yellow stuff. Might he be a rogue program (did we see frenchie or anyone else in code?) or (for the matrix within a matrix people) he might be fully awakened.

BadNova · 21st May 2003, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by rubberchicken
The agents in 1 didn't glow, especially not that yellow stuff. Might he be a rogue program (did we see frenchie or anyone else in code?) or (for the matrix within a matrix people) he might be fully awakened.

The Seraphim are the first order of angels in Christian theology, so perhaps it has something to do with that. He dresses in white, probably not a coincidence.

blur^ · 21st May 2003, 20:59

is seraph the machine that is "turned" in matriculated?

MadMax · 21st May 2003, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred
Now we are on the verge of running around in circles on this issue. Suffice it to say I haven't been persuaded to think the Oracle wasn't at least lieing and lets leave it at that. What will be more interesting to ponder is where the third film is going to go.

i presume that the oracle got her special ability the same way as all the other kids did. Her predictions are made inside the matrix, meaning she has the ability to see or 'feel' probabilty trees or somesuch of the matrix software.

If she was to see the future in the real world, all she would see is doom. She is much more valuable to neo and co if she can see things in the matrix world. IE she can essentially read the matrix's mind. The matrix makes the future and governs everyones fate, and she can read it.

What she is doing or what is going on with her in the second movie is anyone guess.

Luse · 22nd May 2003, 12:11

I think I should go watch it a few more times before I try and dissect it in the depth that you guys have gone into. Some very interesting points here, helped me to understand a whole lot of parts I missed due to the guy beside me twitching his leg really fast and making the 3 seats either side of him shake... grrrr.. anyway... I have one question: The part with the chick in the white dress... Persephone i think it was? she puts on the makeup and kisses Neo.. If any of you have played the game (and im picking most of u have) whats the deal with her making the same deal with Ghost and Naiobe? She kisses them too. Anything in that storywise or is she just a horny bitch? I first thought it had something to do with Neo's coma at the end???

Whiplash · 22nd May 2003, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Luse_K
The part with the chick in the white dress... Persephone i think it was? she puts on the makeup and kisses Neo.. If any of you have played the game (and im picking most of u have) whats the deal with her making the same deal with Ghost and Naiobe? She kisses them too. Anything in that storywise or is she just a horny bitch? I first thought it had something to do with Neo's coma at the end???

I think she's a vampire, like the bodyguards were warewolves and the twins were ghosts.

Also, when she kissed neo - we hear the matrix code noise each time. Which must indicate something.

As far as weird little things go - i read somewhere an idea about the 'cookie' (that the oracle gives neo in the first movie) is similar to cookies that browsers give out - in that its either a traceing program or something to allow access to certain new things (abilities?)

Fred · 22nd May 2003, 12:41

Whiplash, I was just going to comment on those cookies. Remember the Architect talks about how Neo must return to the source to disseminate the code he carries? I am wondering if the code he carries was given to him as part of the cookie the Oracle gave him. After all we already have evidence of food being used to impart algorithms or change people with the Merovingian's stunt.

Luse · 22nd May 2003, 14:22

about the comments a few pages back to do with the counsel of Zion. they are old yes, but I don't think that means too much, most politicians are old. They cant be the first released from the matrix can they? cos the war has been on for 'a Century' I think I heard Morpheus saying. then again does that mean they have been fighting from Zion for a century or they think its a century since the very first war with the machines where they "scorched the sky"

I'm pretty sure Morpheus says what year they believe it to be in the first movie just after they get Neo out and hes in his room on the Neb. So compare that year with the year the matrix is (late 20th century? height of mankind's civilisation... "I say your civilisation because when you created us it became ours" I think that's what smith said... Is there a 100 year gap there?
/me runs off to watch it again

Simon · 22nd May 2003, 14:49

There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis placed on EATING in the movies, both as a scene-setter and as a potentially-crucial plot device. Neo exits the Matrix and one of the first things he realises onboard the Neb is that in the real world, food is tasteless unappealing slop. Cypher has a little philosophical exchange while betraying the Neb to Smith while eating and examining a piece of steak. The Oracle gets Neo to eat a cookie. The Merovingian gets Inez off by sending her a piece of chocolate cake.

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

Hmm, that makes the Persephone character a bit more intriguing.

Satan@Work · 22nd May 2003, 16:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Simon
There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis placed on EATING in the movies, both as a scene-setter and as a potentially-crucial plot device. Neo exits the Matrix and one of the first things he realises onboard the Neb is that in the real world, food is tasteless unappealing slop. Cypher has a little philosophical exchange while betraying the Neb to Smith while eating and examining a piece of steak. The Oracle gets Neo to eat a cookie. The Merovingian gets Inez off by sending her a piece of chocolate cake.

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

Hmm, that makes the Persephone character a bit more intriguing.

Also following on from this are the Alice in Wonderland references (where everything she ate or drank affected her)

Plus on the Matrix Revisted DVD, I seem to remember the W brothers quoting exactly that
"remember alice and wonderland where people give her all this stuff to eat and drink and she has no idea whats going on"

MadMax · 22nd May 2003, 17:14

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=%2B...=Google+Search

2170 interesing reads by the looks of it

EvilLumpy · 22nd May 2003, 17:16

I don't like these suggestions of bad guys lying...

I simply don't believe that it can be done without pissing off a lot of people!

I mean, that's one of the hard and fast rules : Bad guys don't lie unless it's going to be revealed very soon (in the next hour) that he indeed was fibbing his pants off.

I mean, imagine you're watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time, the revelation of the whole "I am your father" shit crops up...

and then you wait to the next movie to find out he was lying through his evil-assed grill just to give Luke a fright!

Now, how disappointed would you be?

As for eating stuff..

Neo: Why are you here?
Oracle: I love candy!

Simon · 22nd May 2003, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilLumpy
As for eating stuff..

Neo: Why are you here?
Oracle: I love candy!

Good one, I forgot that

so really it was the same scene in both movies --

Neo: I don't know who or what you are, I don't trust you, and I can't believe anything you say.
Oracle: Shut up and put this thing in your mouth!

EvilLumpy · 22nd May 2003, 17:21

Oh yeah, and you guys are thinking about it waaaay too much

Fred · 22nd May 2003, 18:17

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilLumpy
Oh yeah, and you guys are thinking about it waaaay too much

But that is part of the fun! A pleasant movie you just sit back with brain in neutral and enjoy. A good film you actually can think about and analyse as well. A classic film entertains and edifies with an almost effortless touch not making you realise quite how much was going on till after you finish it.

Reloaded, at the moment, is happily fitting into the lower end of good with the potential to change it's ranking depending on how the third film shakes down.

Fred · 22nd May 2003, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilLumpy
I don't like these suggestions of bad guys lying...

I simply don't believe that it can be done without pissing off a lot of people!

So you didn't like 'The Usual Suspects' then?

My point being we can have main characters lie to us like flat fish, reveal the ending to us ('The Opposite of Sex' being a prime example here) and generally behave oddly ('Fight Club' with it's multiple personality game which lets us have an imaginary character yet not reveal it for most of the film.) and still have a very entertaining film. The trick is to present the clues fairly so that if you were paying attention you can figure it out and in hindsight you realise the clues were there - after the first viewing.

Indeed 'The Usual Suspects' is an excellent example because even at the end of the film we are still not entirely sure what happened on the boat as contradictory evidence is given to us so effectively Verbal Kint spends the entire film lieing to us and we loved it!

Cyberbob · 22nd May 2003, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred
stuff

American Psycho would be another one to add to the list

Bread · 23rd May 2003, 15:56

'Spoilers' from Enter the Matrix, after playing through with Niobe:

- The Oracle seems to have been warned by the Merogorvian (or however the fuck you spell it) about making a choice...seems she made her decision, and she's been changed in some way. Possible that this won't have any real signifigance, but it's an 'explination' on how they plan to deal with the actresses' death, as it's resulted in her looking physically different. Some sort of program upgrade?

- Niobe and Ghost are both still alive at the end of Reloaded, they're sitting in some unexplorered tunnel in the real world, after Neo stops the Sentinels and passes out. The Logos is out of action, and it looks like they're waiting for a rescue.

- The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo's mind is 'stuck in a world between ours and yours'.

Make of it what you will.

Whiplash · 23rd May 2003, 16:57

And at the end of Revolutions, Neo wakes up into the real-real world ...

... as Dwane Dibbley!

Hemebond · 23rd May 2003, 18:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Whiplash
And at the end of Revolutions, Neo wakes up into the real-real world ...

... as Dwane Dibbley!

LOL!! Yeah!

Jin · 24th May 2003, 18:48

k after reading all your posts and then watching the movie..

there is no 2nd matrix
zion is the _real_ world
neo could stop the machines in zion because of a link between himself and the matrix, not because zion is another matrix.

revolutions will kick all our arses.

sux2b _comming _soon

Bread · 24th May 2003, 19:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Jin
k after reading all your posts and then watching the movie..

there is no 2nd matrix
zion is the _real_ world
neo could stop the machines in zion because of a link between himself and the matrix, not because zion is another matrix.

revolutions will kick all our arses.

sux2b _comming _soon

A second matrix seems like the most obvious answer...which is exactly why I doubt that'll be what it is. Bit of a worry though...from a scientific point of view, how did Neo stop the sentinels? Brain-wave broadcasts from some antenna they implanted at birth? :P

Although having said that, The Oracle in Enter the Matrix says that Neo is stuck 'in a world between yours and ours', so perhaps there is some sort of second matrix.

Jin · 24th May 2003, 19:14

i feel its more of a psychic link between him and the matrix.

"i can feel them".

being _the_one_.. why couldnt there be?

i really dont think (even though it could be possible) there is a 2nd matrix, well i hope not for the sake of the film..

Whiplash · 24th May 2003, 19:15

I can't help but think that that 'kid' might have something to do in a big way though. Being that he woke himself up, which noone thought was possible. Plus he seems to always know when Neo is around ... Maybe he's just a goofy fanboy

Bread · 24th May 2003, 19:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Jin
i feel its more of a psychic link between him and the matrix.

That seems so lame, IMO :P

Whiplash · 24th May 2003, 19:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Bread
That seems so lame, IMO :P

And yet we can happily suspend belief when we see Spider Man climb walls because he was bitten by a bug :P

Bread · 24th May 2003, 20:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Whiplash
And yet we can happily suspend belief when we see Spider Man climb walls because he was bitten by a bug :P

I don't like apples, because they don't taste like oranges.
;P

drone · 25th May 2003, 01:36

I'm definately of the opinion there's a metamatrix involved. It's a much tidier explanation of a number of things, most obviously that if Zion was destroyed 5 times prior doesn't it seem likely there would be significant evidence of the prior Zion's?

Fred · 25th May 2003, 01:44

Quote:

Originally posted by drone
I'm definately of the opinion there's a metamatrix involved. It's a much tidier explanation of a number of things, most obviously that if Zion was destroyed 5 times prior doesn't it seem likely there would be significant evidence of the prior Zion's?

What m,akes you think they would rebuild Zion in the same place every time? It's a big planet...

Simon · 25th May 2003, 02:46

Quote:

From The Architect's speech to Neo
The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion.

Somehow I find it a little bit implausible that 16 females and 8 males can personally build a real-world Zion in a different place each time. That is of course assuming that The Architect's conditions apply to every iteration of the Matrix.

Bread · 25th May 2003, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Simon
Somehow I find it a little bit implausible that 16 females and 8 males can personally build a real-world Zion in a different place each time. That is of course assuming that The Architect's conditions apply to every iteration of the Matrix.

Perhaps they -are- rebuilding in the same place? I imagine it'd be possible if they were just scavanging and rebuilding what they could. And since it seems they're in some way 'sworn to secrecy', you could just pass the ruins off as something from the times before the Human/Robot Wars.

MaZeR · 25th May 2003, 11:22

Morpheus: When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth: 'As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free.' After he died the Oracle prophesized his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people. That is why there are those of us who have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix looking for him. I did what I did because I believe that search is over.... Get some rest, you're going to need it.
Neo: For what?
Morpheus: Your training.

mpx · 25th May 2003, 12:12

I read the first 3 pages then got tired :P so I don't know if this has already been said but..
When Smith was talking to Neo he said he had a part of neo or something, or that they both took a part of each others code.. so maybe thats why he was able to stop those sentinals ? I mean afterall if smith can completely copy himself and go into the real world and have the sentinals kill everyone but him (obviously knowing it was smith) then surely with a bit of code neo got from his first fight he'd be able to do something with it? So I think zion is the real world, the information he got from the matrix is somehow affecting what he can do in the real world

or something

i dunno

the fight scenes were cool

:P

Genesis · 25th May 2003, 12:26

Ok Im a bit late, but that was one hell of a awesome movie

I personally think it was more of a build up to Revolutions, all the unanswered questions and such. I think you had to be a Matrix fan to like this (or have liked the first) it's pretty much the same of the old but with some more twists

Still.. bloody awesome.

Zag0r · 25th May 2003, 13:21

one rather annoying thing (imo) - if Zion is real there is no fucking way they could build it in 100 years. take a look how deep down it goes when they pan down.

Bread · 25th May 2003, 13:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Zag0r
one rather annoying thing (imo) - if Zion is real there is no fucking way they could build it in 100 years. take a look how deep down it goes when they pan down.

So I definately think they're just rebuilding in the same place.

21st May 2003, 20:26	#402
rubberchicken	Was the asian guy with the Oracle in the trailer (for Revolutions)? If he doesn't play a greater part in things, then he was just another excuse for a fight scene. And what was up with that glowy shit he was made of in the code?

21st May 2003, 20:34	#403
[TS]Sephiroth	Has anyone mentioned about the "Matrix inside a matrix" why it was so? Because if you listen to the Architect, it really kind of gives it away... They made "The Matrix" inside the one they already had, to give people Choice. Once they thought they were (or indeed, thought they were) "Out", then why would the subconsious keep trying? Only the Uber-leet would "Wake up" twice, you see. If someone has already said this, then disregard.

21st May 2003, 20:41	#405
rubberchicken	The agents in 1 didn't glow, especially not that yellow stuff. Might he be a rogue program (did we see frenchie or anyone else in code?) or (for the matrix within a matrix people) he might be fully awakened.

21st May 2003, 20:59	#407
blur^	is seraph the machine that is "turned" in matriculated?

22nd May 2003, 12:11	#409
Luse	I think I should go watch it a few more times before I try and dissect it in the depth that you guys have gone into. Some very interesting points here, helped me to understand a whole lot of parts I missed due to the guy beside me twitching his leg really fast and making the 3 seats either side of him shake... grrrr.. anyway... I have one question: The part with the chick in the white dress... Persephone i think it was? she puts on the makeup and kisses Neo.. If any of you have played the game (and im picking most of u have) whats the deal with her making the same deal with Ghost and Naiobe? She kisses them too. Anything in that storywise or is she just a horny bitch? I first thought it had something to do with Neo's coma at the end???

22nd May 2003, 12:41	#411
Fred	Whiplash, I was just going to comment on those cookies. Remember the Architect talks about how Neo must return to the source to disseminate the code he carries? I am wondering if the code he carries was given to him as part of the cookie the Oracle gave him. After all we already have evidence of food being used to impart algorithms or change people with the Merovingian's stunt. __________________ \|O-bot\|-fred 'fred is not dead, fred is resurrected!' "It is only in the tales humans tell, that the hunters win in the end."

22nd May 2003, 14:22	#412
Luse	about the comments a few pages back to do with the counsel of Zion. they are old yes, but I don't think that means too much, most politicians are old. They cant be the first released from the matrix can they? cos the war has been on for 'a Century' I think I heard Morpheus saying. then again does that mean they have been fighting from Zion for a century or they think its a century since the very first war with the machines where they "scorched the sky" I'm pretty sure Morpheus says what year they believe it to be in the first movie just after they get Neo out and hes in his room on the Neb. So compare that year with the year the matrix is (late 20th century? height of mankind's civilisation... "I say your civilisation because when you created us it became ours" I think that's what smith said... Is there a 100 year gap there? /me runs off to watch it again Last edited by Luse : 22nd May 2003 at 14:27.

22nd May 2003, 14:49	#413
Simon SHG	There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis placed on EATING in the movies, both as a scene-setter and as a potentially-crucial plot device. Neo exits the Matrix and one of the first things he realises onboard the Neb is that in the real world, food is tasteless unappealing slop. Cypher has a little philosophical exchange while betraying the Neb to Smith while eating and examining a piece of steak. The Oracle gets Neo to eat a cookie. The Merovingian gets Inez off by sending her a piece of chocolate cake. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." Hmm, that makes the Persephone character a bit more intriguing.

22nd May 2003, 17:14	#415
MadMax Stuff	http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=%2B...=Google+Search 2170 interesing reads by the looks of it

22nd May 2003, 17:16	#416
EvilLumpy	I don't like these suggestions of bad guys lying... I simply don't believe that it can be done without pissing off a lot of people! I mean, that's one of the hard and fast rules : Bad guys don't lie unless it's going to be revealed very soon (in the next hour) that he indeed was fibbing his pants off. I mean, imagine you're watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time, the revelation of the whole "I am your father" shit crops up... and then you wait to the next movie to find out he was lying through his evil-assed grill just to give Luke a fright! Now, how disappointed would you be? As for eating stuff.. Neo: Why are you here? Oracle: I love candy!

22nd May 2003, 17:21	#418
EvilLumpy	Oh yeah, and you guys are thinking about it waaaay too much

23rd May 2003, 15:56	#422
Bread	'Spoilers' from Enter the Matrix, after playing through with Niobe: - The Oracle seems to have been warned by the Merogorvian (or however the fuck you spell it) about making a choice...seems she made her decision, and she's been changed in some way. Possible that this won't have any real signifigance, but it's an 'explination' on how they plan to deal with the actresses' death, as it's resulted in her looking physically different. Some sort of program upgrade? - Niobe and Ghost are both still alive at the end of Reloaded, they're sitting in some unexplorered tunnel in the real world, after Neo stops the Sentinels and passes out. The Logos is out of action, and it looks like they're waiting for a rescue. - The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo's mind is 'stuck in a world between ours and yours'. Make of it what you will. Last edited by Bread : 23rd May 2003 at 15:58.

23rd May 2003, 16:57	#423
Whiplash Bobo Fettish	And at the end of Revolutions, Neo wakes up into the real-real world ... ... as Dwane Dibbley!

24th May 2003, 18:48	#425
Jin	k after reading all your posts and then watching the movie.. there is no 2nd matrix zion is the _real_ world neo could stop the machines in zion because of a link between himself and the matrix, not because zion is another matrix. revolutions will kick all our arses. sux2b _comming _soon

24th May 2003, 19:14	#427
Jin	i feel its more of a psychic link between him and the matrix. "i can feel them". being _the_one_.. why couldnt there be? i really dont think (even though it could be possible) there is a 2nd matrix, well i hope not for the sake of the film..

24th May 2003, 19:15	#428
Whiplash Bobo Fettish	I can't help but think that that 'kid' might have something to do in a big way though. Being that he woke himself up, which noone thought was possible. Plus he seems to always know when Neo is around ... Maybe he's just a goofy fanboy

25th May 2003, 01:36	#432
drone	I'm definately of the opinion there's a metamatrix involved. It's a much tidier explanation of a number of things, most obviously that if Zion was destroyed 5 times prior doesn't it seem likely there would be significant evidence of the prior Zion's?

25th May 2003, 11:22	#436
MaZeR	Morpheus: When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth: 'As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free.' After he died the Oracle prophesized his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people. That is why there are those of us who have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix looking for him. I did what I did because I believe that search is over.... Get some rest, you're going to need it. Neo: For what? Morpheus: Your training.

25th May 2003, 12:12	#437
mpx .	I read the first 3 pages then got tired :P so I don't know if this has already been said but.. When Smith was talking to Neo he said he had a part of neo or something, or that they both took a part of each others code.. so maybe thats why he was able to stop those sentinals ? I mean afterall if smith can completely copy himself and go into the real world and have the sentinals kill everyone but him (obviously knowing it was smith) then surely with a bit of code neo got from his first fight he'd be able to do something with it? So I think zion is the real world, the information he got from the matrix is somehow affecting what he can do in the real world or something i dunno the fight scenes were cool :P

25th May 2003, 12:26	#438
Genesis	Ok Im a bit late, but that was one hell of a awesome movie I personally think it was more of a build up to Revolutions, all the unanswered questions and such. I think you had to be a Matrix fan to like this (or have liked the first) it's pretty much the same of the old but with some more twists Still.. bloody awesome.

25th May 2003, 13:21	#439
Zag0r C₈H₁₀N₄O₂	one rather annoying thing (imo) - if Zion is real there is no fucking way they could build it in 100 years. take a look how deep down it goes when they pan down.