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Old 4th December 2020, 08:22     #641
Redneck
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
blackface (should be stopped dead)
Counterpoint - Chris Morris doing it
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Old 12th December 2020, 11:31     #642
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Well I'm sure this will result in calm rational exchange of intellectual positions

https://dailycaller.com/2020/12/10/t...iological-sex/
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Old 12th December 2020, 11:58     #643
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, this is a tough hurdle. How do we integrate the artefacts of our gender-obsessed past into post-gender-obsessed society? I think trying to have both is only doomed to fail.

Seems like we need to start developing our sports in a way that creates classes based on other than what's in our pants. Many sports already do it, with various competition classes that aren't based on gender.
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Old 12th December 2020, 18:02     #644
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Well there are sports in which being of one sex or another doesn't convey an advantage; target shooting is an example, and often has open competitions.

However in basically any sport that involves trying to do something higher or faster or further, natal males have a huge advantage. To make those sports "open" would be to exclude natal females from competing.
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Old 12th December 2020, 19:27     #645
Lightspeed
 
It's a matter of creativity. It's not like we're stumped on how to make sports competitive and engaging where a few performers dominant a much larger body of competitors.

It's also a matter of discipline. Rather than dumping all our attention and cash on the absolute pinnacle of performance, we can take a more balanced approach to how we invest in and promote sport.
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Old 12th December 2020, 20:53     #646
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
It's a big deal in the US because of the fucked-up education system there. There is such insane competition among parents to get their kids into the "top schools" and such insane competition among those schools to be where the top students go. Being selected for this or that high school or university sports team, winning this or that competition, is a deal so huge that no-one growing up in a socialist utopia like NZ or Australia can really comprehend it.

If your daughter's entire future has been mapped out for her based on her getting into the sports team that gets her the scholarship that gets her to the university that gets her the degree that gets her the career, and she misses out on the team because a trans athlete -- who was previously a B-grade male athlete but is now the greatest female athlete in the history of the school and wants that scholarship too -- has joined the team, you better believe mummy and daddy are gonna get their lawsuit on.
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Old 13th December 2020, 09:36     #647
Cyberbob
 
And, IMO, rightfully so. Biological sex is completely different from gender.

I don't care if you identify as a meat popsicle, if you're bio-male, you're not competing fairly in strength/muscle based sports as a bio-female
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Old 13th December 2020, 14:48     #648
Lightspeed
 
That's true, but as concepts they're still fairly welded together in our society. It's the undoing of this weld, and the free-ish nature of our society, that are compelling this reorganisation of institutions that traditionally relied on this weld.

Strength/muscle based sports are only a subset of sports. But regardless there are plenty of sports that already split by gender that are also split by other factors to ensure a large body of competitors rather than just the few that are the biggest and strongest.

There's no reason why we can't do this without gender/sex being a factor.

But as Ab points out, there's a lot more to sports than competition. There's money and influence tied up in it. A rare stepping stone into wealth or at least out of poverty for many. Then there's how we use sport as a means of maintaining national identity.

It's all very complex, but resisting the change is ultimately doomed to fail, short our free-ish society becomes less than free. Which will certainly by what some will push for. But only to their own detriment. I expect to see many examples of that posted here.
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Old 13th December 2020, 15:01     #649
Cyberbob
 
I'd expect the IOC etc eventually separate gender from bio-sex.

Gender: M/F/Neither/Both/Toothbrush, etc.
Bio-sex: M/F - nothing more than that.

IOC will rule that any gender can play together, but there'll be certain sports that cannot mix bio-sex. Shooting, fine. Wrestling not so much.

Then wait* for professional sports to make examples of it. NWFL, WNBA, etc.


*that wait could be 20-30 years.
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Last edited by Cyberbob : 13th December 2020 at 15:05.
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Old 13th December 2020, 15:05     #650
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

You reckon you could take down any woman at wrestling? Cause after all, you're a man.
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Old 13th December 2020, 15:08     #651
Cyberbob
 
Wonder if there's a strawman Olympics.
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Old 13th December 2020, 15:14     #652
Lightspeed
 
It's not a strawman. You're understanding men and women as if all men share the same strengths and all women share the same weaknesses, therefore there is no place for men and women competing against each other.
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Old 13th December 2020, 17:01     #653
xor
 
Dave Chappelle:If Lebron James changed his gender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHoHbF-51s
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Old 14th December 2020, 15:30     #654
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Sport is good for kids. It's fun, social, educational, teaches all sorts of lessons like practice and preparation and etiquette and respect for rules and trying your hardest and the joy of victory.

There are few things as frustrating as hearing a young girl come off the field or the court and say "I don't want to do this any more" after she has been forced to compete against boys and has been fucking smashed by them. This applies even with boys and girls on the same team. A girl who plays every game but never gets a touch of the ball because her male teammates don't trust her to catch it is going to quit too.

The boys want the ball more, they want to cross the line first more, they're more aggressive and confident and it becomes a positive feedback loop. They're more aggressive and confident and they win which teaches them how to harness aggressiveness and confidence.

The girls get smashed or excluded, quit the team/sport/competition, and they never get that first step in the positive feedback loop. Girls missing out on lessons of aggressiveness and confidence is a NEGATIVE feedback loop. That's why girls are and should be a protected class of athletes. They should not be forced to compete with and against male teammates and opposition. To be encouraging female athletes to participate in activity that offers its participants important lessons but which is set up in such a way that the female participants all want to quit--and thus the lessons are only imparted to the male participants--is simply discriminatory.

That seems to be the essence of Gabbard's bill.
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Old 14th December 2020, 19:17     #655
Lightspeed
 
It's a reasonable position, for anyone who has grown up where the lens of gender welded to sex is ego-syntonic. The young boy that comes off the field crying isn't even a consideration. They're expected to man up, get back out there, this is the real world sonny! The young girl's tears on the other hand are encouraged, their fragile femininity welcomed, desired. Shame for the weak boy or strong girl is just right and proper. Very difficult for us old folk to see the problem in this at all, that these are lessons that are as significant as our more lofty ideals.

In part the aggressive nature of many of our sports reflects the aggressive nature of our culture. Aggression is to be encouraged amongst those most able to wield their power, the weak shown their vulnerability. The strong get what they want, the weak get fucked. We teach this early. The idea that there's strength found in diversity is lost.

But what's happening is more and more are growing up where the distortions of this lens are obvious and problematic. It's an imposition, oppression that surely cannot stand if our society is free as we're lead to believe.

It's not something we can go back on. Bills like Gabbard's are a vain attempt to maintain the status quo. But it's too late, that path to power is dead, any movement is just the kicking of a corpse. New life will evolve, nothing that can be planned or legislated. We have to discover what works, suffer the pain of what doesn't. This legislation won't.

Perhaps what we'll learn is maybe we can wait until our kids are older and able to make a choice for themselves before we subject them to each other's capacity for violence, for the sake of some lessons. We're not so fucking dumb we can't come up with competitive activities that don't involve physically forcing ourselves on each other.
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Old 14th December 2020, 21:27     #656
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
What about competing against gravity and time, for example racing and throwing and jumping events? It's not as if some guy is trying to pull the shot out of a female shot-putters hands. It's not as if some guy is trying to push a female cyclist off her bike. It's not as if some guy is trying to knock over a track sprinter while she's running. But there is absolutely no point in a female athlete attempting to be the best in those events if female athletes are not a protected class. The current women's Olympic champions would get annihilated in their disciplines by high-school boys.

In an example previously posted, I love knowing that Valerie Adams is one of the greatest athletes in history. Because she competes in the protected class of "female athlete". If shotput competition were open, I would never have heard of her and neither would anyone else. She would never have even started competing. There would have been no point. Multiply that "never even starting" by every girl who ever considers sport, and that's an alternate timeline with a lot less awesome and a LOT more gender inequality. Every millionaire athlete and world champion and possessor of an "overcoming adversity to win" life story that gets made into a movie in that timeline is male.
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Old 14th December 2020, 22:02     #657
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, we've got some grieving to do. Things that worked before aren't going to work in the future. It turns out we can't have it all.

The sports of today will one day be the sports of yesterday. Take a look at the decline of rugby in New Zealand for instance.

And there's so much more that's changing than just gender and sports. All kinds of disruptions and disruptions to those disruptions. Nothing is going to go the way it should. It's just gonna go. You can try fight the tide if you want. Or maybe learn how to surf.
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Old 14th December 2020, 22:08     #658
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Well, rugby's in a tough spot because now women are getting crippled by natal male players in their competitions, and the insurance payouts and lawsuits are skyrocketing.

Hence why

Quote:
Trans women will not be permitted to play elite women’s rugby for the foreseeable future because of “significant” safety concerns, World Rugby has stated after releasing new guidelines for transgender players.

In a statement explaining its decision, World Rugby said that after months of research and examining the latest scientific research it had “concluded that safety and fairness cannot presently be assured for women competing against trans women in contact rugby”.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...o-injury-risks
rugby is cancelled
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Old 14th December 2020, 22:11     #659
Lightspeed
 
That's a pretty fringe issue for rugby. That's not why people aren't showing up to clubs.

Our obsession with acts of physicality is becoming quaint.
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Old 14th December 2020, 22:18     #660
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Jeez LS, whaddarya?!

Physicality is important, just take chess, a competition in which only 37 of the top 1600 players are women.
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Old 14th December 2020, 22:25     #661
Lightspeed
 
And you reckon girls can't take losing chess? They'll see a boy winning and decide this isn't for me, perpetuating a feedback loop of girls not playing chess and we want girls playing chess? The only way of supporting girls in chess is to create divisions based on sex?
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Old 15th December 2020, 08:44     #662
fixed_truth
 
With youth sports (where transgender athletes have been competing for quite a while) there doesn't seem to be any widespread instances of individual transgender athletes dominating so it's a weak justification for a blanket ban of transgender athletes. On the other side not excluding trans athletes has extremely positive physical and mental health consequences for all trans kids.
As for adults I suppose the power struggle with rules around hormone levels and time since transitioning etc will go on until some perceived 'balance' is reached.
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Old 15th December 2020, 13:29     #663
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Forget I ever brought up the disparity in chess champions, it's interesting but not relevant to this also-interesting youth sport angle. Just a distraction. I want credit for the Foreskin's Lament quote though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
With youth sports (where transgender athletes have been competing for quite a while) there doesn't seem to be any widespread instances of individual transgender athletes dominating
Any instances, or widespread instances? can't be both.

So the US bill's terms are

Quote:
If implemented into law, the bill would deny federal funding to schools that “permit a person whose biological sex at birth is male to participate in an athletic program or activity that is designated for women or girls.”

https://time.com/5920758/tulsi-gabba...-women-sports/
Remember to look at this through the lens of oh my god the US is another planet when it comes to education.
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Old 15th December 2020, 14:11     #664
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Jeez LS, whaddarya?!
Ab goes peak Aussie
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Old 15th December 2020, 14:41     #665
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Any instances, or widespread instances? can't be both.
It doesn't seem to be widespread in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Remember to look at this through the lens of oh my god the US is another planet when it comes to education.
No doubt the bill would be terrible for trans youth. Without the bill is there a fear that people will abuse the system for financial gain or access to college?
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Old 15th December 2020, 14:47     #666
Lightspeed
 
There's huge incentive to abuse or find way to take advantage of any system that might afford financial gain in the US. With such stark inequality everything is distorted by people's desire for wealth and fear of losing or never having it.

Unfortunately it makes the unreasonable appear quite reasonable and normal. Like grooming children to be sports heroes without a plan for when that likely fails. Which in turn leads people to find something to blame for those failures.
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Old 15th December 2020, 16:59     #667
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
On that particular subject, I found this book enlightening:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Meritocrac.../dp/0735221995

+1, Recommended
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Old 15th December 2020, 21:00     #668
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Ab goes peak Aussie
not enough faces for all the palms
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Old 15th December 2020, 22:45     #669
Lightspeed
 
Holy crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Wow. While I did recognise the expression, its provenance was lost on me. My eyes have been opened.
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Old 16th December 2020, 13:41     #670
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
hysteria, see what I did there

this is a really insightful take on Keira Bell, Elliot Page, trans activist hysteria, etc.

https://sisteroutrider.wordpress.com...the-same-page/
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Old 17th December 2020, 23:01     #671
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
San Francisco may remove Abraham Lincoln’s name from a high school, because a district committee says the 16th president — who abolished slavery — did not demonstrate that “black lives mattered to him.”

https://nypost.com/2020/12/16/san-fr...n-high-school/
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Old 16th January 2021, 14:58     #672
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Transgenderism: The Latest Anti-Feminist Wedge of the Left

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/tran...-left/10097710

Quote:
At least since the sexual revolution of the 1960s, Lefties have been rankled by the presence of feminists among their ranks.

But purging these uppity women presents a challenge. Overtly denigrating feminists is risky: it can be perceived as misogynistic, and cedes too much political ground on issues lefties like to call their own - such as abortion rights.

Unfortunately, prolific and global male crimes of incest, rape, prostitution, domestic violence, female genital mutilation, child marriage and acid attacks make the feminist cause a bit too justified, and a bit too popular.

So the Left is stuck with having to marginalise through covert means the political movement organised to resist male supremacy and its violent war against women and children.
...
Transgenderism is not a political movement motivated by progressive concerns - it's just the latest weapon in the Left's covert battle against feminism.
I seem to recall reading something along those lines in this thread somewhere
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Old 16th January 2021, 15:49     #673
Lightspeed
 
So we're supposed to be buying up this whole bogus "the left, the right" frame that's popular in the US now?
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Old 16th January 2021, 16:32     #674
Lightspeed
 
My trigger aside, my sense is Caroline Norma knows what she's doing.

Somewhat distasteful in my point of view, but she's doing what she'll know will have a kind of impact.
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Old 18th January 2021, 13:09     #675
fixed_truth
 
To me that piece reads as one big strawman. I can't think of anything inherent in feminism that is mutually exclusive from the left?

But yeah perhaps it is because left & right terminology is heavily politicised in the US & so has different meanings relative to the narrative of the speaker.
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