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Old 6th October 2021, 13:20     #1721
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
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Old 6th October 2021, 13:22     #1722
Lightspeed
 
I get that you find clever quips convincing...
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Old 6th October 2021, 13:29     #1723
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Maybe you are not the only person on this forum, and I don't actually give a fuck about you personally? If you ignore information presented to you, that's on you.
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Old 6th October 2021, 13:30     #1724
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
I'm just anti totalitarianism that's all, and it's a hill I *am* willing to die on.
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Old 6th October 2021, 13:34     #1725
Lightspeed
 
Are you saying that there's never a scenario where a community should be expected to act in harmony for it's own wellbeing? Or that we simply haven't reached that threshold for such action? In which case I'd wonder, how would you know the threat is indeed worthy of a community wide response to protect everyone?

I also wonder if you rage inside when you find yourself waiting in a queue for something.
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Old 6th October 2021, 13:51     #1726
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Are you saying that there's never a scenario where a community should be expected to act in harmony for it's own wellbeing?
No.
Quote:
Or that we simply haven't reached that threshold for such action?
We had a scare, which put us into lockdown. Then the data came out which showed it was not as severe as we had feared. But the plan did not change with the new information. We continue as though it kills everyone who is infected, even though we know that's far from the case. And taking action is not a problem in and of itself, it's FORCING people to perform certain actions without their consent, and then attempting to coerce them by removing freedoms.
Quote:
In which case I'd wonder, how would you know the threat is indeed worthy of a community wide response to protect everyone?
When the data presents itself and it's obvious, and even in that case, it's still an individual's choice about what action they do or do not take.
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Old 6th October 2021, 14:43     #1727
Lightspeed
 
You're sidestepping my questions by presenting a narrative. Your story about how it's not so bad. You're telling us the death and suffering that we've seen around the world, even with the measures that have been taken, is not sufficient to justify such steps.

Are you an anarchist? Do you stand in opposition to our systems of ownership, where people cannot avail themselves to resources without conforming to these systems?

If you're not an anarchist, if you accept that a community can impinge on individuals and groups for the sake of that community, how are you determining that this isn't such a case?

Saying "when the data is obvious" isn't saying anything at all. What does obvious data look like? How are you sure such data would be obvious?
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Old 6th October 2021, 15:44     #1728
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Obvious data would be something that doesn't look like 99% of people recovering and the average age of death being close to the life expectancy.

Consider that if this "pandemic" was as serious as people have been led to believe, there wouldn't be any hesitancy about doing what is touted as "the right thing".

When there is so much doubt and discrepancy about the story, so many unknowns about the "solution", it appears to me that the actions being taken - by governments in unison around the world - are alarming and cause for concern, not something just to goosestep merrily along to.

I'm not an anarchist, but I believe that governments and societies have limits on what they can impose upon citizens, and it is ultimately about consent of the governed.

How can anyone tell you what to do if you don't respect their authority?

Quite simply, they can't.
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Old 6th October 2021, 16:07     #1729
Lightspeed
 
How have you made that determination? What percentage of people dying does necessitate the measures we're seeing, how is that decided? I understand old people are worthless to you and many others, but do you expect everyone to think the same? Most people have someone older in their life the value, even depend on.

The pandemic is exactly as serious as health authorities have presented. That's been obvious since Italy first started racking up deaths.

I can only think you're ignorant of history if you think that this is what goosestepping merrily along looks like. No one is being marched down ravines, laid against the already executed and shot to death.

Yes, there are many who have spread doubt, doubt you've demonstrated yourself eager to lap up. However when you look across the world the situation is the same. Health resources being exhausted, people of all ages who would have otherwise lived dying, many more suffering horribly. We can see places less able or willing to take action suffering more than those more able and willing.

All you've got is story. It's not surprising to me that you're trying to convince yourself that it's some single narrative that's justified the measures we see. Rather than all communities of the world responding in different ways to the same real circumstances.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 6th October 2021 at 16:09.
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Old 6th October 2021, 16:23     #1730
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
but do you expect everyone to think the same?
You hit the nail on head. We all make up our own minds. Which is why I don't agree with insisting that everyone has to do the same thing.

The government (and the citizens who are cheerleading this current lunacy) don't seem to understand or appreciate that.

I'm refusing out of principle. Even if this vaccine is safe, it sets a dangerous precedent that everyone just /does as they are told/ and injects new treatments.

Thought experiment: How frequently would you accept a government mandated vaccine? Annually? Six monthly? Weekly? Daily?

Where do you draw the line between "I have rights" and "I must help society and agree with the current leadership's plan that I may or may not agree with"?

Do you accept I have the right to say no to a vaccine?
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Old 6th October 2021, 16:37     #1731
Lightspeed
 
So "freedom of choice" means flipping a coin every time you have a choice? Just to prove you have a choice? Do you some days wear clothes when out publicly, other days not? Sometimes use a toilet, other times shit yourself? Cause you have the need to prove you have freedoms?

Again, you're sharing a story I'm sure you didn't come up with yourself, about how this vaccine is a "new treatment". No one is just doing what they're told. There's a great effort to inform people why these measures are necessary.

I drink fluoridated water every day. So that's the answer to your thought experiment.

No one is being forced to take the vaccine, but we are being compelled, because there is great incentive for us to make this choice. But you've been told a story about being forced, and you're enjoying obviously rare feelings of empowerment by refusing.

Rights? You can do what you want. You can't choose the consequences.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 6th October 2021 at 16:39.
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Old 6th October 2021, 18:12     #1732
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Put it this way - I don't wear a uniform to work. Everyone else does. The others asked why not, I said I didn't want to. They looked at me like they hadn't even thought of refusing.

They also said "no shorts" in the contract (religious thing). So what did I do? I wore shorts because it was summer. Next minute, the warehouse team see that I have shorts, and the company adds shorts to the uniform for all the workers because it was too hot in the warehouse.

It's simple. Standing up for what you believe in allows others to realise that they too have a choice, and being called names or being spoken down to is just manipulation to try and coax people to "belong".

I guess my saving grace is that I don't actually care about being accepted. I am who I am, and fuck you if you don't like me. I don't care either way.
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Old 6th October 2021, 18:18     #1733
Lightspeed
 
How are you different from a stinking homeless guy rummaging through the trash? They're making a choice too.

That you can make the choice you're making flies in the face of your concerns about totalitarianism. You've got to chuck that in there so you can feel like a hero. But the truth is you are free to be pathetic.
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Old 6th October 2021, 19:54     #1734
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Cool bro. Glad you're able to discuss this sensibly and not just call me names, I really admire your intellect.
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Old 6th October 2021, 20:28     #1735
Lightspeed
 
I get your feelings are hurt, but that's not what I did.

You're making this show of being proud of making unpopular choices. But so what? You're not actually oppressed. You are free to make the choices you're making.

And people are free to think your choices are pathetic.

Right?

The difference is you're trying to make out you're standing up to oppression. Totalitarianism you said.

When I try to figure out how you're being oppressed, you're flipping to "it's my choice!" demonstrating you're exactly not!
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Old 6th October 2021, 20:46     #1736
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
You clearly did not watch the video.
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Old 6th October 2021, 21:44     #1737
Lightspeed
 
You shared a video "Why do so many still buy into the narrative?" and yet all you have to back up your position is a story.

You'll tell us "only" 1% of people are dying but can't explain why that value matters, how you know, what percentage would make the pandemic serious, or who would decide. You claim you're standing up to totalitarianism... by insisting you'll make a choice you're completely free to make.

Why would anyone watch something you find convincing?
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Old 6th October 2021, 22:25     #1738
Giblets
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
at home testing has been available for more than a year and Australia (NZ too) have banned them at a time when we needed them. They’ve changed their tune in Aus and they will be available next month.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/o...sts-covid.html
The rapid tests are appropriate for suppression but not for elimination. I'm living in Germany atm and for a period it was required to have a 'schnelltest' to do certain things like go to certain shops or the hairdresser, this still required the test to be done by a third party though so not at home.

Now that NZ is dropping the elimination strategy I expect you'll start to see them.

Also they were ~5euro here initially and only recently dropped to the 1eur range, so testing a family of four before visiting my in-laws got expensive!
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Old 6th October 2021, 23:32     #1739
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Two things.

First, the point is not "not many people die". It's that the people who get sick require such intensive care for so long from so many people and requiring so many square metres of hospital that it's a fucking DDOS attack on the health system. All it takes is a few COVID patients, and then people start dying of car crash and asthma and meningococcal disease. Because there were no ambulances or beds or doctors or nurses available to do the things that would otherwise keep them alive.

Second, the key stat is not "most people who catch it don't die", it's that of the people who do die, something like 98% are unvaccinated. 97% of the people who require hospitalisation, DDOSing the health system, are unvaccinated.

Three, "not dying" is not the same as "recovering". Something like 45% of people who catch COVID and don't die require continuing treatment A YEAR LATER.

Summary: not vaxed? Selfish cunt. Shut the fuck up and take your goddamn medicine, or leave the fucking country and go live in some individualist utopia where your risks and your medical expenses come out of your own pocket instead of being borne by the community.
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Old 7th October 2021, 00:08     #1740
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
And there we have it. I'm the Jew and I'm dirty and must be eradicated.

For society.
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Old 7th October 2021, 00:27     #1741
Lightspeed
 
facepalm

Oof. Yeah, men with machine guns are going to show up at your door and march you off to be executed because of who your parents are. That's exactly the situation.

You're such a hero. So enlightened. Unflinching in the face of martyrdom.
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Old 7th October 2021, 02:10     #1742
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
And there we have it. I'm the Jew and I'm dirty and must be eradicated.

For society.
sweet zombie jesus, can you read what you're posting?
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Old 7th October 2021, 03:32     #1743
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Here's a hint if you can't work it out: I'm not being literal. Clearly I am not a Jew. It's a metaphor.

If you make your OWN decision, and then insist EVERYONE does the same: whether it's for "a team of 5 million" or just "the good of society", then you ARE the cunt here.

What you do is your business. What I do is my business.

Fat cunts drink Coke, and we help them with diabetes.
Alcoholics drink piss all their lives, and we give them dialysis.
Old cunts fall over, we give them hip replacements.
Prisoners get fucked up from mouthing off, we treat their brain injuries.

But dare to make your own choice about an injection that seems dodgy in circumstances that don't really warrant the risk?

You're a fucking leper horror threat to society that needs to pay and be shunned out of the country and don't come near my kids.

Seems absolutely reasonable, and I love the way this timeline playing out.

Your uniforms are looking sharp by the way, the Fuhrer will be pleased.
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:25     #1744
Redneck
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
You're a fucking leper horror threat to society that needs to pay and be shunned out of the country and don't come near my kids.
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Old 7th October 2021, 08:01     #1745
fixed_truth
 
Never go full Rogan.

In a pandemic what you do is my business because it directly effects me. If your actions are putting people and society at risk of harm then of course there's consequences. That's generally how society works.

Diabetic, alcoholic, elderly & prisoner patients aren't requiring hospital treatment at a concentrated level that we would see in a covid outbreak. Also they're not infectious while in hospital.

The covid vaccine doesn't actually look dodgy and the risk of negative outcomes from not taking it are a lot greater.

I get you're all about challenging the status quo and raging against authority (which in the right context is valuable) but it really comes across that this internal desire to challenge authority is causing you to interpret and or ignore information that doesn't support you to do so.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:20     #1746
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
My Dad died a year ago - a couple of weeks after his flu vaccine. He was fine beforehand, then he died of a heart attack - myocarditis. And what is know to cause myocarditis? Oh yeah, flu vaccines (due to the viral load). I told him not to bother getting it - I even said to him, jokingly, after he DID get it - "Oh well, that's the end of you..." But, he was his own person - it was his choice, and he probably thought it was "the right thing to do". He didn't like to rock the boat as I tend to do.

I've got his genes, so all I see is a 100% probability of tempting fate when I get the vaccine vs a much smaller probability of contracting it from the community (not likely, because I live in isolation and barely visit people).

That is to say, I have my own personal medical concerns, so I have the right to make my own decision to refuse. Myocarditis is one of the "common" side effects of this vaccine (as in, it is known and acknowledged that it happens sometimes). Why would I want to go sticking myself with something that a) I don't fundamentally believe in, and b) don't know what it will do to me?

Statistics or probabilities are no use here: I don't care what happens to 1000 other people when they get it. It's not like you suffer a proportionally small complication/death because of the probability. You either suffer a complication or you don't. Best way to prevent a vaccine complication is not to get one!

I don't do medicine, the closest I have in my house is ibuprofen and some sticking plasters. I never get sick, so I don't even have a GP. I've eaten part of a red and white spotted toadstool just to see what it would do (I got the shits and a sore guts) - still here today. I've drunk entire bottles of cough syrup (I did not have a cough). I've shared pipes/joints and bottles with homeless strangers. Still not sick. I've done most street drugs - but the line I drew was "never inject shit". It's a policy that's served me well so far.

I don't get flu vaccines - when I got one years ago it either didn't fucking help, or it just made me feel like shit as a result. No thanks, what's the point? I don't have kids, so no little disease vectors in my household. The people at work who are regularly getting sick are the parents with littles. I might come away with a bit of a sore throat, but a vindaloo sorts that out.

The whole overreaction (mass formation) doesn't make sense to me - I find it concerning and bizarre - the vaccine poses a risk I am not willing to take, and for that reason, I simply refuse.

That, as far as I am concerned, is where it should end. It's actually people like yourselves that are directly affecting me (as opposed to my very indirect Minority Report style crime of spreading something in the future that I don't even have) because you're happy to trash the rights of others just so that you feel safer - even though you are probably vaccinated yourselves.

Quote:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Even if I *did* get COVID (which is so bad that you don't even know you have it in many cases - the fact we often need to test to know we have this "sickness" instead of just being sick tells me everything I need to know), I'd just be at home. I don't even know where the medical center is in this town - the hospital is in Wanganui or Palmy and I wouldn't bother driving there to say "hey man, I feel bad, can you hold my hand for a few days while my body heals me?" I have full faith in my body, it hasn't failed me yet, and as they say, don't fix what isn't broken.
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Old 7th October 2021, 13:18     #1747
Lightspeed
 
I get how your Dad's death would make you vaccine hesitant. I'm sorry for his passing.

But you're saying you're standing up to totalitarianism. You're sharing videos about how we're all "bought into the narrative".

You're both trying to convince us we're making the wrong choice and you're making the right one, while also telling us you're being forced to make a choice you're clearly not. You're free to make your choice.

You're an incoherent mess.
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Old 7th October 2021, 14:07     #1748
Native
I... err - F*ck It.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Retaining talent is happening - NZ has a remarkably low turn-over. However recruiting quality people takes time - not helped by NZ's very narrow definition of acceptable medical staff when recruiting from overseas. EG: I know an experienced podiatric (feet/ankle etc) surgeon that - because he was trained, and practiced, in Iran and had moved to NZ. Was not allowed to practice without basically two additional years "training". He ended up moving to Aussie as they recognized his qualifications.
Don't then get me started on the hoops required by Immigration NZ.

And of course training new medical staff is a multi-year thing that's not easy to burst capacity for.

Expanding ICUs and hospital capacity -
The physical equipment side is easy. The additional rooms/buildings is semi-easy. However capacity is more defined by the staffing, and that's where we've got the shortage.

"Almost a year" - or even if we say 18 months to go back to March last year - is not necessarily an adequate timeframe.
Thanks for the comments. I admit that my views are based on what I read/see in the media and a few slices from the Auckland DHB where my family works.

That podiatric example is similar to what my FIL had to do if we wanted to practice in NZ from the Middle East. Some of the material he was asked to study (2 years extra training) was material that he lectured on in London - but that doesn't count. He used to run A&E practices in Iraq before coming to NZ, and now he works in the DHB because of hoops. That was 20-30 years ago and I'm appalled that is still the case.

I actually didn't know that our turnover was low - I'm now curious as to why and how they measure it. I'll have a read.

I still think that my point remains though that our overall planning in the last 12-18 months has big gaps. NZ is/was a very desirable place to live and we couldn't facilitate better recruitment, immigration paths, and general prep work. They had a clear case/opportunity for change - and I feel they squandered it.
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Old 7th October 2021, 14:10     #1749
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
I might come away with a bit of a sore throat, but a vindaloo sorts that out.
Supposing you brought the vindaloo inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting
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Old 7th October 2021, 14:55     #1750
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
But you're saying you're standing up to totalitarianism. You're sharing videos about how we're all "bought into the narrative".

You're both trying to convince us we're making the wrong choice and you're making the right one, while also telling us you're being forced to make a choice you're clearly not. You're free to make your choice.

You're an incoherent mess.
Well, you have. Honestly, there's no point discussing a video you haven't even watched. You're taking a single word I've said (totalitarianism), interpreting it how you see fit, and then denying that we're living under conditions which you would call "totalitarian". It doesn't just happen overnight.

Don't even reply if you're not interested in the video. This isn't a game where I'm trying to score points. I'm sharing information which I find genuinely interesting, and you're just here attacking everything I say because you're bored I guess, or simply because you like to argue.

I'm probably incoherent if my words have no context, and that lack of comprehension is based on the fact you ignored the content I shared, which would provide the context you need to understand what I'm saying.

You've always got something to say on everything, and most of the time it's just vague generalisations like you're some omniscient pseudo philosopher, so don't think everything you post is quality content mate. Most of the time I just shake my head and mutter "fuckwit", there's no need to tell you every time.
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Old 7th October 2021, 15:02     #1751
StN
I have detailed files
 
Hmm - he may be on to something. I keep kicking myself when I could have saved several grand and the kids' 7 years each if they had just watched a couple of YouTube videos rather than hanging out in Otago and txting me every week to top up their EFTPOS so they can get a curry.

I'm calling it - this thread will be in the Vualt! and not for a good reason.
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Old 7th October 2021, 15:03     #1752
Lightspeed
 
You're comparing your experience with the persecution of Jews. "It's just a metaphor!"

If that video is so compelling you should be able to share that insight yourself.
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Old 7th October 2021, 19:32     #1753
Giblets
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
If that video is so compelling you should be able to share that insight yourself.
It's over an hour of two guys talking about how they think and feel that everyone who doesn't agree with them is under some kind of mass delusion and it presages the coming of totalitarianism.

Ironically the same ideas apply pretty well to the anti-vaxxer group eh.

There's not much point in continuing this discussion if his argument is that we're all mindless automatons. Demanding that we waste over an hour watching that instead of making his argument directly is pretty lame.

Btw, from my own experience living in Germany atm, up until two weeks ago no one I know had had any direct contact with covid which has made it feel very abstract. Must be even more so for you guys still in NZ!
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:57     #1754
StN
I have detailed files
 
I found a video that is considerably shorter (at 31s) that may explain things.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:06     #1755
LFC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
I found a video that is considerably shorter (at 31s) that may explain things.
I just about pissed my pants at the end lol
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:18     #1756
blynk
 
I know its because of this "vaccination day" tomorrow, but a good piece from Judith Collins.
A couple of small digs at Labour, but mostly a piece about "just go get vaccinated" with a few good reasons why.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...judith-collins
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:42     #1757
StN
I have detailed files
 
^^ Check out John Titor here with his messages from the future!!

(Vacc day is the 16th right?)
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Old 8th October 2021, 13:28     #1758
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giblets
Btw, from my own experience living in Germany atm, up until two weeks ago no one I know had had any direct contact with covid which has made it feel very abstract. Must be even more so for you guys still in NZ!
New Zealand has had it really good. Just that one first lockdown, then a couple of shorter ones, but mostly we've been living free and easy.
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Old 8th October 2021, 13:42     #1759
Lightspeed
 
I see the government is taking the Top Town approach to vaccination:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...-slowest-in-nz
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Old 8th October 2021, 15:43     #1760
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
Hmm - he may be on to something. I keep kicking myself when I could have saved several grand and the kids' 7 years each if they had just watched a couple of YouTube videos rather than hanging out in Otago and txting me every week to top up their EFTPOS so they can get a curry.

I'm calling it - this thread will be in the Vualt! and not for a good reason.
things_which_might_work = `check_symptoms`

for drug in $things_which_might_work; do $drug; if [ $_ -eq 0] echo "oh it worked, I'm a genius"; else echo "hmm, we'll try something else"; done;
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Last edited by DrTiTus : 8th October 2021 at 15:46.
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