Domestic violence spinoff thread

[pxpx]

LS thinks that family violence is OK and that people who think violent men should be held to account are ignorant.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by pxpx

LS thinks that family violence is OK and that people who think violent men should be held to account are ignorant.

Actually, what I was saying wasn't hyperbole, JK is genuinely ignorant about issues around violence and doesn't understand men's role in constructing our contemporary society and the values it operates under. Either that or he's a complete cunt who is selling out what he can for the benefit of him and his. That would be hyperbole though.

A similar kind of popular ignorance existed around the 50s when researchers were trying to convince people that young children needed love beyond being fed, kept warm and dry. Fortunately the research was sound and widely accepted, the most obvious evidence of that being the changes to our children's hospitals.

Unfortunately the nature and volume of domestic violence is even harder for people to think about and accept it seems.

[CCS]

Lolspeed is sorry for being a man, but I say he has nothing to apologise for.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by pxpx

LS thinks that family violence is OK and that people who think violent men should be held to account are ignorant.

As I said before, regardless of intent, it's not a small group of men who promote such behavior. It's the overwhelming majority. Ignorance of this fact, ignorance which Key is displaying here, is what's lead to the backlash against Cunliffe's apology.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by CCS

Lolspeed is sorry for being a man, but I say he has nothing to apologise for.

I'm certainly sorry you're a man. Well, male. Your adulthood has yet to be demonstrated.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by adonis

it's not a small group of men who promote such behavior.

Can you define "promote" and give examples of the behaviour being so "promoted"?

[Lightspeed]

I wouldn't be able to in this context, this stuff is complex.

[Spink]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

popular ignorance:

cite

[adonis]

Originally Posted by Ab

Can you define "promote" and give examples of the behaviour being so "promoted"?

promote

verb
1.
support or actively encourage (a cause, venture, etc.); further the progress of.

Example 1 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ6YGabx7xs -nsfw

That, for starters.

For further explanation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_4dPB9MVS8

[Ab]

You think sexist pop music videos are a big election issue?

[Lightspeed]

Did you forget your question Ab?

[Pimp-X]

It'd bake your noodle if the director of that clip and the creative team behind it turned out to be women, wouldn't it.

[Ab]

adonis's claim appears to be that the overwhelming majority of men promote family violence. His example of this is a music video by Robin Thicke, and this is all somehow related to David Cunliffe apologising for being a man during an election campaign.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

adonis's claim appears to be that the overwhelming majority of men promote family violence.

Well I would disagree there. I would say all people promote the values of our society, values which currently leave children vulnerable to abuse, values which have emerged from our male dominated past (and present), values which can be seen in the video linked by adonis.

It's linked to Cuncliffe because he is bringing to awareness something that is usually hidden or ignored.

[Ab]

No, Cunliffe has a brain spasm and did what he always does - says whatever he thinks will make his audience like him more. Boy did he fuck that up.

But back on track: the subject at hand is family violence. Adonis replied that "it's not a small group of men who promote such behavior". I presume he's using the rhetorical device of "not small" to convey that it's large.

OK, so adonis claims family violence is promoted by a large group of men. And his example supporting this is video of a song by Robin Thicke. And this is somehow an election issue.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

It'd bake your noodle if the director of that clip and the creative team behind it turned out to be women, wouldn't it.

Ooh, do tell us!

In the meantime, I'm still baffled by this idea that I'm jointly culpable (along with every other male) of violence on women because Robin Thicke made a sexist song. I suppose I should apologise but it just wouldn't be sincere.

[pxpx]

I apologise for Lightspeed being a man.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by Ab

adonis's claim appears to be that the overwhelming majority of men promote family violence. His example of this is a music video by Robin Thicke, and this is all somehow related to David Cunliffe apologising for being a man during an election campaign.

I was answering your question. If you wanted me to put it in the context of the current discussion, then be more specific. That being said, I've already done that, you may wish to read my previous comment.

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Well I would disagree there.

...and you'd be wrong.

I'm not saying that men are aware that they're promoting such behavior, but the fact is most men make sexist comments, and promote unhealthy levels of sexual objectification.

Regardless of intent, most men contribute to a culture that communicates to abusers that their behavior is endorsed by their peers, and that they're just acting naturally, as all men would if it weren't for mitigating circumstances, consequences etc. Comments to the contrary are dismissed as being sourced from the weaker sex.

...and Ab, considering you're trying to make out that Cunliffe's comment was a "brain spasm", it pretty clearly is at least part of a wider election issue. You're trying to make out as though Cunliffe's comment shows he's not capable of leading. Key's "#notallmen" comment was a thoughtless, uneducated position, the kind of position I would expect from Key who has no talent for his current position beyond looking good for your typical, ignorant middle NZ'er.

If this election comes down to catering to stupid people, I guess Key will probably win. But it also means that whoever Labour puts up would either have to be equally stupid, or risk losing. I'm hoping (possibly in vain), that there aren't enough stupid people out there. I'm probably being too optimistic.

[pxpx]

I feel that men are undervalued members of society and nothing that we have to give is valued by women and/or society.

Here is my evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9PToOYitfs

QED?

[CCS]

Originally Posted by pxpx

I apologise for Lightspeed being a man.

I think someone needs to apologise for lolspeed being born.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by pxpx

I feel that men are undervalued members of society and nothing that we have to give is valued by women and/or society.

Here is my evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9PToOYitfs

QED?

What a great comparison. A song about a woman not being impressed by looks alone, featuring men possessing means which she lacks (the ability to travel around), and her refusing their offers and doing her own thing.

Being independent and strong and possessing her own sexuality, which she has complete control over, DESPITE the disparity between her means and the means of the men who seem to have control over fairly important assets when you're walking around the desert alone.

I guess if you were an insecure, sexist Douche-bag this video might make you feel that men are undervalued members of society, but only if you were really, really, fucking stupid.

... and then you compare it to this, a song that has great lines like, "I know you want it", a line that's been used by rapists all over?

"No more pretending", yeah, she's pretending not be interested, OR MAYBE SHE'S NOT PRETENDING AND YOU'RE JUST A D-BAG?

...and "I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two". Sure, 'cause woman just love bleeding from their anus.

If this video was an isolated thing then maybe it wouldn't be worth mentioning, but it was a fucking number one hit, and whenever it's criticised people fucking LINE UP to say, "naaah, nothing wrong with it".

How about actually listening to people? How about not dismissing people outright because they're woman? Or because the're speaking up for woman?

Example #2 - some dickhead dismissing woman because DUH, WOMAN -

Originally Posted by Ab

"(Cunliffe's) message went down well with the overwhelmingly female audience."

well duh

Yeah, LOL, duh, woman!

Of course such a comment just kinda gets brushed over in a place like this, where sexism is just, y'know, normal.

Some degree if sexual objectification is fun and healthy, the AMOUNT that woman are objectified is not.

[Ab]

woosh

[Savage]

Originally Posted by adonis

... and then you compare it to this, a song that has great lines like, "I know you want it", a line that's been used by rapists all over?

Sheeit, I liked the song just coz it was catchy - I didn't even know it had those lyrics.

FWIW, I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent. I don't agree however, that Cunliffe had this kind of complex thought process behind his "apology". Based on his history (and that of Labour), I have to agree with Ab - he said whatever he thought his current audience really wanted to hear. I don't really even hold that against him, he's just doing what almost all politicians do sooner or later.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

adonis's claim appears to be that the overwhelming majority of men promote family violence. His example of this is a music video by Robin Thicke, and this is all somehow related to David Cunliffe apologising for being a man during an election campaign.

So you got what you asked for, then decided you wanted more than examples, but a thorough thesis...

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by pxpx

I feel that men are undervalued members of society and nothing that we have to give is valued by women and/or society.

Here is my evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9PToOYitfs

QED?

I think adonis was providing an easy to access example. Most examples require a bit of thinking and some ground work to be covered. I.e. something that is impossible here. Although their example also falls flat without at least some thinking. A curious mind can appreciate it, even if they disagree they'll see the point. An ego on the defensive will not.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by Savage

Sheeit, I liked the song just coz it was catchy - I didn't even know it had those lyrics.

Oh I totally get that, the song is catchy as fuck and it's easy to see why it was a #1 hit for so long. I just don't think there should have been such a counter-backlash when people started pointing out the glaringly obvious problems with it.

[Spink]

I think he's saying you sound like a crackpot because you're saying the kind of things that a crackpot would say. Perhaps you would find more traction on some conspiracy theorist forums where there are less lizard people disguised as normal posters.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by CCS

I think someone needs to apologise for lolspeed and adonis being born.

[Lightspeed]

You got 'em all whipped up adonis!

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by Ab

adonis's claim appears to be that the overwhelming majority of men promote family violence.

Those with limited introspection assume that everyone else acts the same that they do. For this particular person here I can't comment on whether they fall into this category or not.

Violence towards women is probably normal in NZ. Many things are normal though; being regularly drunk is both normal and extremely popular whereas playing lawn-bowls is normal but not very popular. I don't know how popular this form of violence is but I expect it's at the tiddlywinks end of normal.

NZ society has voted to keep this sort of violence secret. Some are asking for a change here. Either way my family is not affected and I don't really see any evidence that those outside my family that I care about are affected either.

Really I just don't care.

[Lightspeed]

I think Cuncliffe was apologising for the little bit of GT that lives inside all of us.

lolz lolz

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by adonis

What a great comparison. A song about a woman not being impressed by looks alone, featuring men possessing means which she lacks (the ability to travel around), and her refusing their offers and doing her own thing.

Being independent and strong and possessing her own sexuality, which she has complete control over, DESPITE the disparity between her means and the means of the men who seem to have control over fairly important assets when you're walking around the desert alone.

I guess if you were an insecure, sexist Douche-bag this video might make you feel that men are undervalued members of society, but only if you were really, really, fucking stupid.

... and then you compare it to this, a song that has great lines like, "I know you want it", a line that's been used by rapists all over?

"No more pretending", yeah, she's pretending not be interested, OR MAYBE SHE'S NOT PRETENDING AND YOU'RE JUST A D-BAG?

...and "I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two". Sure, 'cause woman just love bleeding from their anus.

If this video was an isolated thing then maybe it wouldn't be worth mentioning, but it was a fucking number one hit, and whenever it's criticised people fucking LINE UP to say, "naaah, nothing wrong with it".

How about actually listening to people? How about not dismissing people outright because they're woman? Or because the're speaking up for woman?

Example #2 - some dickhead dismissing woman because DUH, WOMAN -



Yeah, LOL, duh, woman!

Of course such a comment just kinda gets brushed over in a place like this, where sexism is just, y'know, normal.

Some degree if sexual objectification is fun and healthy, the AMOUNT that woman are objectified is not.

Dude are you a real person? Like, actually in real life? Because holy shit, you're about to take Lightspeeds crown!

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

unless he IS a rapey wifebeater, what the fuck is he apologising for? either-

1. hes a rapey wifebeater and i wouldnt want him in charge
2. he is making a fake ass apology for nothing and i wouldnt want him in charge (along with the long list of other dumb fucking shit hes already done)

That's a very simplistic view. I know humans are more complex... in fact, of all the complex stuff we're coming to grips with, we're the most complex.

Why is it accepted that things like evolution and medicine need to be understood complexly, simplistic arguments opposing them holding no weight, but when it comes to understanding humans and how we live, how we impact and are impacted by each other, if it can't be understood simply it must be wrong?

I wonder if it's because humans are really complex and to get by we have to make assumptions and stick to them.

Understanding men's role in society is a natural progression from understanding a mother's role in raising a healthy child. When this was first put forward in an empirical manner, there was a lot of backlash: it was considered mother-blaming to suggest that if a child grew up to have poor behaviour and mental health that the mother had a role to play. But decades later it's well accepted a person's primary caregiver (whoever that might be) has a fundamental role in helping them develop healthy adult functioning.

To avoid "mother-blaming" we look at the maternal environment that mother-child pair exists in, what is there to ensure there are sufficient resources available for the healthy development of the child? Here you hit hard against the reality of men's power and authority in society, how men get to shape society. Both the men in the home and the men who have power over the men at home (employers, authorities.) You really need to do a lot of ground work to really understand the dynamics at play here. For example you might point to many women in positions of power and authority now, but you need to understand how we are still under the sway of the values of the past where men factored heavily in deciding the direction our society takes.

If anyone has a genuine interest in this, this is an accessible resource that draws directly from primary sources, it's a good introduction to the complexity of human life:
Becoming Attached: First Relationships and How They Shape Our Capacity to Love

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

Either way my family is not affected and I don't really see any evidence that those outside my family that I care about are affected either.

Really I just don't care.

Which brings us back to:

Also, if you’re a adult male you have an incentive not to believe the rape-culture argument. Rape and domestic violence don’t really affect you, while accusations that you have a collective responsibility for it do – which is why some people are more outraged by Cunliffe’s awkward statements than they are by any of the actual abuse that happens in this country.

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

That's a very simplistic view.

Exactly. There's a combination of multiple factors interacting in a complex way - individual, community, relationship, and societal (including social, cultural and environmental factors).

Interestingly, it's seems most 'comparatively conservative' people have a false axiom that only acknowledges the individual and their personal responsibility factors. Which I find illogical in the causal universe we operate in.

[leadinjector]

i love the assumptions being made here. so youre saying that because i think cunliffes statement was pants on head retarded I must not care? and then you start talking about causality?

[Lightspeed]

That wasn't what I was saying, I don't think f_t was specifically responding to you but rather the general theme of what's being discussed here.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

That wasn't what I was saying...

funny, because youre not who i was replying to.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

That wasn't what I was saying, I don't think f_t was specifically responding to you but rather the general theme of what's being discussed here.

the only person who actually expressed that "theme" was our local troll account.

its like a fucking tumblr board up in hurr

[Spink]

It's interesting how LS suddenly became so "expert" in human psychology not long after the youtube Crash Course in psychology series started airing.

Can someone post a big air quotes emoticon or gif for me for that "expert" bit, thx

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

the only person who actually expressed that "theme" was our local troll account.

I meant the theme that the only reason to apologise for being a man is if you're a rapist. That there aren't other reasons a man might feel sorry.