Charter schools trial

[Ab]

ACT's Epsom MP John Banks and United Future leader Peter Dunne yesterday signed support deals with National, giving it the numbers to govern.

In return both men gained ministerial warrants and concessions for their parties.

Under the deal with ACT, community, religious or ethnic groups, or private companies, will be allowed to operate state-funded charter schools.

School boards will be able to set class hours and introduce performance-related teacher's pay.

Hoo boy. Teacher unions are gonna lose it. But this is the best part:

Prime Minister John Key is defending the introduction of charter schools under a deal with ACT despite National never campaigning on it, saying "that's MMP for you, isn't it?".

[[Malks] Pixie]

Time to home school.

[FRiO]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...cience-reading

I for one agree with the Government. We should follow the education model of countries performing worse than us (US, UK).

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by FRiO

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...cience-reading

I for one agree with the Government. We should follow the education model of countries performing worse than us (US, UK).

Very nice :-)

Originally Posted by article

The UK is ranked 25th for reading, 28th for maths and 16th for science. In 2006, when 57 countries were included in the study, it was placed 17th, 24th and 14th respectively.

And we've brought in the same person who oversaw this decline in the UK to make the same changes here in NZ - I'm sure there's some meme which applies to this..

[cEvin]

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by FRiO

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...cience-reading

I for one agree with the Government. We should follow the education model of countries performing worse than us (US, UK).

Haha.

Prime Minister John Key is defending the introduction of charter schools under a deal with ACT despite National never campaigning on it, saying "that's MMP for you, isn't it?".

Here's hoping you don't lose a seat in the specials eh John? Then you won't be forced to introduce this!

[Ab]

Personally I consider the US school system a crime against humanity and find any attempt to replicate it in NZ abhorrent. But this is the government people voted for.

[cyc]

I won't defend this shitty idea but I find the "NZ IS DOING REALLY WELL IN EDUCATION; LOOK AT OUR RANKINGS" talk laughable. Anyone who's tutored or lectured in one of our universities will see what sort of deadbeats our secondary school system produces.

[ChaosWulf]

Originally Posted by Ab

Personally I consider the US school system a crime against humanity and find any attempt to replicate it in NZ abhorrent. But this is the government people voted for.

Not all of us

[FRiO]

I'm not saying the NZ system is without flaws; just that applying a (comparatively) worse system perhaps isn't the best way to go about fixing them.

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Here's hoping you don't lose a seat in the specials eh John? Then you won't be forced to introduce this!

ACT only exist in this election thanks to John Key's say so, doubt there's much forcing going on.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by cyc

I won't defend this shitty idea but I find the "NZ IS DOING REALLY WELL IN EDUCATION; LOOK AT OUR RANKINGS" talk laughable. Anyone who's tutored or lectured in one of our universities will see what sort of deadbeats our secondary school system produces.

Ahhh so your tutoring experience is a representative example of the types of outcomes which are being produced in relation to other countries overseas?

Whilst I recognise that you are obviously a very intelligent person I'll take the evidence over your "experiences" any day. If our system is such shit then it seems strange that our export education sector is so strong in relation to other comparable countries (including Aussie, UK, US and many many parts of Europe) - not only at tertiary level but also at secondary (and even to some degree primary) level.

Pixie

[chubby]

i think cyc is bruised by the smug,entitled fucks that make up about 50% of our law students.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by cyc

I won't defend this shitty idea but I find the "NZ IS DOING REALLY WELL IN EDUCATION; LOOK AT OUR RANKINGS" talk laughable. Anyone who's tutored or lectured in one of our universities will see what sort of deadbeats our secondary school system produces.

i guess that just means there are more deadbeats elsewhere.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by chubby

i think cyc is bruised by the smug,entitled fucks that make up about 50% of our law students.

Bzzt. I actually mainly taught health care law to health care professionals.

Pixie: Define "strong". The market is quite a funny old thing in terms of telling you what people consider most valuable. Ever noticed why people flood to study in Australia, Europe and the US despite institutions there charging fees multiple times higher than ours?

And what you don't get is that the people I teach are admitted to degrees with the highest entry requirements in general. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make that they are supposed to be some of our best students. If you're impressed by people who can't ever use the apostrophe properly, can't make a proper deductive argument, and can't actually enunciate multple syllable words properly (things that I regularly see), I'd suggest you get yourself higher standards.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by cyc

"strong"

no, you define strong mr "reluctant supporter of the supporters of the market".
what a fucking douche

[zeekiorage]

"that's MMP for you, isn't it?"

What he is really saying is: if the people of Epsom who voted for Labour candidate had voted for National candidate instead then ACT would've been wiped off and we wouldn't have this situation.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by chubby

no, you define strong mr "reluctant supporter of the supporters of the market".
what a fucking douche

It's a bit past your bed time, Chubby.

[chubby]

yes it is.
go have a crywank about those poor,poor people you didnt get to pro bono.
c-o-c-k.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by cyc

I won't defend this shitty idea but I find the "NZ IS DOING REALLY WELL IN EDUCATION; LOOK AT OUR RANKINGS" talk laughable. Anyone who's tutored or lectured in one of our universities will see what sort of deadbeats our secondary school system produces.

I think that's a sign that universities are too easy to get into and too hard to get kicked out of personally.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by cyc

Pixie: Define "strong". The market is quite a funny old thing in terms of telling you what people consider most valuable. Ever noticed why people flood to study in Australia, Europe and the US despite institutions there charging fees multiple times higher than ours?

No I'm inclined to agree with Chubby here and suggest that you do your own research. There's plenty of reports out there about the input that the export education market provides to our economy and it's relative strength compared to our main competitors.

Originally Posted by cyc

And what you don't get is that the people I teach are admitted to degrees with the highest entry requirements in general. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make that they are supposed to be some of our best students. If you're impressed by people who can't ever use the apostrophe properly, can't make a proper deductive argument, and can't actually enunciate multple syllable words properly (things that I regularly see), I'd suggest you get yourself higher standards.

Oh no I get it (I'm not going to stoop to challenging you to define the relative entry requirements of various degrees not matter how tempting it is) - and I'm unsurprised by your usual derogatory tone which you direct towards anyone who shows the impertinence of challenging you on any statement that you make. You just can't resist putting people down at any opportunity that you get - which is so sad because it dissuades people from engaging in any sort of informative debate with you and thusly gaining any sort of benefit from your knowledge.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Bent

I think that's a sign that universities are too easy to get into and too hard to get kicked out of personally.

But that still ignores the reality that universities tend to attract the most/more motivated and intelligent. If they aren't exactly, well, displaying a lot of signs of intelligence, I don't think this says too much about our education system.

Originally Posted by [Malks

Pixie]There's plenty of reports out there about the input that the export education market provides to our economy and it's relative strength compared to our main competitors.

Oh please don't be so lazy. High % relative to GDP can be suggestive of all sorts of things, including the relative low value of our other industries. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that our main exports/foreign exchange earners (commodities and tourism) don't earn much. This is a poor country by first world standards for a reason. Personally, I am just tired of the usual self-congratulatory tone from New Zealanders. Everything that we do is great, world leading, and generally awesome. Pity all the end results never stack up.

How could you stoop to challenge" me on the relative entry requirement of various degrees when you don't even have an argument? Don't make me laugh, chum. Anyone who's not brain dead knows that law, medicine and health science (including post-grad courses for such - which I've taught) have some of the highest entry requirements. I am not talking about a BA in Sociology.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by cyc

The market is quite a funny old thing in terms of telling you what people consider most valuable.

THOUGHTCRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pervy]

Based on overseas models in the United States and Britain, it will allow entities such as private businesses, church groups, iwi organisations, charities, or existing schools to take over the management of failing schools and retain state funding.

Does this raise a huge red flag for anyone else?

[MaZeR]

Man they seem to be going hard out to get rid the state integrated Steiner schools. First National Standards, now this.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by pervy

Based on overseas models in the United States and Britain, it will allow entities such as private businesses, church groups, iwi organisations, charities, or existing schools to take over the management of failing schools and retain state funding.

Does this raise a huge red flag for anyone else?

yes.

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by pervy

Does this raise a huge red flag for anyone else?

Well this is all "could if it's the same as what has sometimes but ever so rarely happened overseas" isn't it?

There's no red flag at all - other than as a political gesture of the desperate.

Of course, if you're a labour supported this will look evil. Schools are going to be HELD ACCOUNTABLE for the outcomes they achieve and if they prove incapable of delivery they're going to get spanked with a very big stick. Hell, next it will be the teachers individually that are held accountable - unions and incompetent teachers are going to scream murder. What I suggest is stand there with a clipboard, write down these teacher's names, and then fire them on the spot - those self-selecting that they're incapable probably are and for the sake of our children they need to go.

Remember 9 out of 10 kids that succeed in education all represent votes lost to labour. Having kids succeed just is not the stuff of keeping half of the voting population believing they're poor.

Measurement, accountability and consequences: it's about time schools had all of these.

[Vrtigo]

[chubby]

Originally Posted by Vrtigo

the guys a shocker.

[pervy]

Originally Posted by Vrtigo

[chiquelet]

As somebody who's particularly interested in primary/secondary education, the idea of introducing charter schools is actually quite exciting. I'm all for alternative approaches to education (what a surprise coming from the Green-voting home educating hippy). OTOH, National seem to be bent on screwing up education in NZ - national standards, decreased funding for early childhood centres with 80% or more fully qualified staff - so I'm also somewhat wary of this new initiative.

[Juju]

I really don't know enough about this national standards carry on - so can someone explain in layman terms why it appears to be so unpopular? I can't seem to figure out why it's such a problem to bring in a standard measure for a kids intelligence?

[fixed_truth]

I think that iwi run charter schools would be a great way to help Maori students at the bottom of the education system.

My concern with 'for profit' charter schools is that because it's inconclusive at best that they will help those at the bottom it seems the basis for setting up charter schools is largely ideological.

Obviously NZ's system is failing many students but IMO the fact that NZ's education system is regularly at the top of OCED rankings suggest that there are a lot of other external factors at play here rather than simply the system being shit.

Interesting article http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...gination=false

According to University of Washington economist Dan Goldhaber, about 60 percent of achievement is explained by nonschool factors, such as family income. So while teachers are the most important factor within schools, their effects pale in comparison with those of students’ backgrounds, families, and other factors beyond the control of schools and teachers. Teachers can have a profound effect on students, but it would be foolish to believe that teachers alone can undo the damage caused by poverty and its associated burdens.

If we are serious about improving our schools, we will take steps to improve our teacher force, as Finland and other nations have done. That would mean better screening to select the best candidates, higher salaries, better support and mentoring systems, and better working conditions

I fully agree. Set the bar a lot higher to be a teacher and pay a lot more.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I fully agree. Set the bar a lot higher to be a teacher and pay a lot more.

Employ and pay based on performance? That's crazy talk!

[fixed_truth]

If it's done right before hand you won't need to go into all the hassle of trying to identify bad teaching later.

[Ab]

Any organisation that regards identifying poor staff as a hassle deserves to fail.

[Torka]

Originally Posted by Ab

Employ and pay based on performance? That's crazy talk!

It demonstrably is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

I'm serious, watch that video, it's not long

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Ab

Any organisation that regards identifying poor staff as a hassle deserves to fail.

There's no need for binary thinking here. Many educational assessment experts view the proposed national standards policy as fundamentally flawed. This doesn't mean that the organisation is anti-accountability. Just that there's more fairer and effective methods.

[Macca@Work]

"I think that iwi run charter schools would be a great way to help Maori students at the bottom of the education system. "

I'm all ears.Please explain.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Many educational assessment experts view the proposed national standards policy as fundamentally flawed. This doesn't mean that the organisation is anti-accountability.

Nor does it mean that national standards are a bad thing - just that the proposed policy isn't the best implementation.

As a parent I fucking love the shit out of national standards testing and publicly-available school comparisons. LOVE that shit. Australia's education policy in this regard is one of the few ways in which Australia kicks NZ's arse.