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Old 9th October 2022, 13:17     #1721
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
And, to prove the point that there is no clear proof that the treatments are safe or necessary,

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29535563/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32495241/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20646177/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32191677/

https://www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/p...nder-dysphoria

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1...159-7/fulltext

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34665380/

https://www.segm.org/Finland_deviate...ery_for_minors

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950964

https://www.svtplay.se/video/3335859...dren-avsnitt-1

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34665380/

Stewart's position is either that the research cited above and all the research like it does not exist, or that it exists and it should be ignored.

Quote:
Despite the imprimatur of groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics and articles (some of which have been corrected or amended) asserting clear benefits of gender-affirming care, there remains a "paucity of quality evidence on the outcomes of those presenting with gender dysphoria," per the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. "No consensus exists whether to use these early medical interventions," says an article in the Journal of Adolescent Health.

A review of the research by the UK's National Institute for Health and Care Excellence found that in terms of body image, psychosocial impact, satisfaction with surgery and other matters, "The quality of evidence for all these outcomes was assessed as very low certainty." Finland and Sweden have largely stopped providing such medical interventions to trans-identified youth except in carefully controlled studies, not because of politics but because among the successes are poor results, like children with osteoporosis or increasing numbers of detransitioners who medically transitioned and regret it.

https://www.newsweek.com/what-both-s...pinion-1681396
Stewart has to deny all that too. But I guess they're not American institutions, so they don't count. And as we all know, the American healthcare industry is the bestest most noblest most altruistic in the world.
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Old 9th October 2022, 13:23     #1722
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
And, to prove the point that there is no clear proof that the treatments are safe or necessary,
Looks like the same kind of proof I've seen in another thread that COVID vaccines are more harm than good...
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Old 9th October 2022, 13:25     #1723
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
So treat it like you would the info in that other thread: check the publishers; check the references; check the citations; check the professional credentials of the authors relative to the topic.

if, for example, the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists says "Gender Dysphoria is an emerging field of research and, at present, there is a paucity of evidence" -- as it does -- I am more inclined to pay attention than to, say, Jon Stewart trying to get clout.
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Old 9th October 2022, 13:36     #1724
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Although, now that I think about it, that quote itself is an aspect of the problem. To understand it you have to know what "paucity" means. That makes it bad communication. If you come to that quote convinced that there IS clear evidence, and you read the quote without knowing what a paucity is, you would come away without having had your position challenged. You might even come away feeling like your beliefs had been - what's the word? - affirmed.
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Old 9th October 2022, 13:54     #1725
fixed_truth
 
The transphobic lobby isn't concerned about people's health, they're a tool to stoke the culture war and secure religious conservatives.

They're not saying take a cautious approach but rather restricting this heathcare outright against the recommendations of most major health institutions, of which don't hold the position that the current research body justifies this approach.
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Old 9th October 2022, 13:59     #1726
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
So treat it like you would the info in that other thread: check the publishers; check the references; check the citations; check the professional credentials of the authors relative to the topic.
That's not what I do, at least while I'm being disciplined. I have an area of expertise and I know you need a solid background of understanding to tease out the significance of concepts and data. To be aware of what's settled and what's still controversial. To know how any of that applies to practice.

Unless we're all experts now? The era of the layperson has lapsed? One person's ignorance is as good as another's knowledge?

What I do is I assure myself that the institutions responsible are sufficiently legitimate. And if I'm not assured I can only acknowledge I don't know and speak out for improved legitimacy.
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Old 9th October 2022, 14:07     #1727
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
The transphobic lobby isn't concerned about people's health, they're a tool to stoke the culture war and secure religious conservatives.
That’s what’s so hilarious about the situation in the USA; this is a culture war battle in which the religious conservatives actually have the science on their side. It’s the quote-unquote progressive left that is denying reality.
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Old 9th October 2022, 14:10     #1728
Lightspeed
 
No they don't. The science isn't what you make it out to be.
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Old 9th October 2022, 14:13     #1729
fixed_truth
 
A handful of inconclusive studies doesn't trump most health institutions.

That's antivax, climate change denial, the moon landing is fake, Peter Ellis is a gay pedo shit
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Old 9th October 2022, 14:20     #1730
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
You should take that up with the health institutions around the world, including NZ, that say there’s no conclusive proof of anything yet.
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Old 9th October 2022, 14:33     #1731
Lightspeed
 
o_O

Are you suggesting the research you've encountered is the full sum of research available?
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Old 9th October 2022, 16:49     #1732
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Where did I say that?
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Old 9th October 2022, 17:36     #1733
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
You should take that up with the health institutions around the world, including NZ, that say there’s no conclusive proof of anything yet.
Oh, so there's no conclusive proof of *anything* yet? So, there's no conclusive proof supporting the position that there are only *two* sexes either. Nice. Glad we got that sorted out.

I guess now we can move on to the more useful conversation about whether or not intersex and trans people constitute a vulnerable minority.
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Old 9th October 2022, 18:25     #1734
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Oh, so there's no conclusive proof of *anything* yet?
Oh please, you know perfectly well that the subject at hand is the safety and necessity of providing young people suffering from adolescent rapid onset gender dysphoria with access to quote-unquote gender affirming treatment including but not limited to hormone replacement, chemical castration, and physical surgery, and I was holding a phone and couldn't be fucked typing that all out and I figured that we're all grownups and could understand what the placeholder "anything" stood for in this context. So now, with the benefit of this knowledge, imagine that I'd referred to health institutions around the world, including NZ, that say there’s no conclusive scientific proof of the safety and necessity of providing young people suffering from adolescent rapid onset gender dysphoria with access to quote-unquote gender affirming care including but not limited to hormone replacement, chemical castration, and physical surgery.

It is a disorder that has really only existed since teenage girls discovered Tumblr and Instagram in about 2015. That is not enough time for there to have been enough studies conducted to prove, and yes I'm going to say it, anything. Fuck we're still crunching the numbers to see if saturated fats actually cause heart disease and that issue was declared over in the fucking 1950s (surprise! looks like it doesn't! it actually looks like vegetable oil is WORSE for you than animal fat!)

I do note that countries that have the most socialised healthcare systems, countries like Sweden and Finland, are the ones banning the treatments described above because of the absence of useful data. It's the country where healthcare is a get-rich-quick scheme for private enterprise where objections holding up surgery are thrown out because the issue is settled, why would the companies that stand to make all that money lie to Americans?
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Old 9th October 2022, 19:19     #1735
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
It is a disorder that has really only existed since teenage girls discovered Tumblr and Instagram in about 2015.
A wide variety of indigenous cultures would like to disagree with you.
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Old 9th October 2022, 22:23     #1736
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Where did I say that?
You did, when you claimed to know what health institutions know. You're not a part of those institutions Ab. You're just chasing some ideal and calling it science.
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Old 10th October 2022, 00:04     #1737
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Nowhere, anywhere, ever, did I claim that the research I've encountered is the full sum of research available. It's just easy to find lots of articles in peer-reviewed journals and articles from health institutions around the world that say, and I paraphrase, "there is as yet no consensus about the safety and necessity of these treatments and the studies that have been done to date are of limited usefulness, are methodologically questionable, and so far can't be replicated". But it's OK, Jon Stewart thinks the studies don't exist.
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Old 10th October 2022, 10:30     #1738
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:

Vanderbilt Transgender Health Clinic suspends gender-affirming surgery for minors

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/us/va...ors/index.html

The center came under fire last month after video emerged of a specialist at the hospital touting transgender surgeries as 'huge money makers'.
Huh
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Old 10th October 2022, 12:59     #1739
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Nowhere, anywhere, ever, did I claim that the research I've encountered is the full sum of research available. It's just easy to find lots of articles in peer-reviewed journals and articles from health institutions around the world that say, and I paraphrase, "there is as yet no consensus about the safety and necessity of these treatments and the studies that have been done to date are of limited usefulness, are methodologically questionable, and so far can't be replicated". But it's OK, Jon Stewart thinks the studies don't exist.
You find what you seek. That's bad science and you know it.

You're approaching health science from the same epistemological stance as you would old school physics. This is not how it works. That's not what health science is for.

That there are endless examples of horrifying bullshit is a function of inequality. Something health science is compelled incorporate in its findings, in how these findings are applied to practice. That you expect different is a function of privilege.

It's not like institutions are oblivious to all that goes wrong, all that gets pushed too far or taken the wrong way. But we don't have the luxury of sorting it all out. The next pile-on is already on the horizon.

But I get it, your ignorance is as good as anyone's knowledge, you won't give up the fight until sport is fair.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 10th October 2022 at 13:02.
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Old 10th October 2022, 13:29     #1740
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Going by an inequality metric like Gini, it would appear that the less inequality a society has, the more likely it is to be banning "gender affirming" surgery for children because of an absence of data supporting it as safe or necessary.

Sweden, Gini rank 141: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children

Finland, Gini rank 148: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children

Denmark, Gini rank 148: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children

USA, Gini rank 46: will Madam be paying by cash?


https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ind....GINI/rankings
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Old 10th October 2022, 13:29     #1741
_indigo1
 
@LS have you ever been directly exposed to how broken, compromised, wrong, and damaging institutional decision making and guidelines can be?
ESPECIALLY medical institutions?
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Old 10th October 2022, 13:33     #1742
Lightspeed
 
Yes, absolutely. Directly exposed, in the room as it happens exposed. Walking out the room struggling to keep balance exposed.
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Old 10th October 2022, 15:17     #1743
_indigo1
 
Just asking. As a balance given the talk of accepting institutional stances on things.

As have I.
Convulsing, panic attack, uncontrollably trembling, uncontrallable sweating, insomina, panic, suicidal thoughts direct.

One of those "Oh it must be psychosomatic, not the fact we pulled your meds and replaced them with a generic which we the committee declare are identical even though we didn't test them, so therefore you and the entire >7000 strong petition of people seriously affected, to the point of protesting outside parliament, are just wrong, placebo, nocebo sufferers, even the dead ones"
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Old 10th October 2022, 15:39     #1744
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, and the decisions that are being made like this are being made in the context of "there's this volume of need and these resources available".

There are so, so many situations where there are ONLY bad decisions. Like, nightmare calls. You're having to choose between who will suffer what nightmare.

But hey, let's fight for fairness is sport.
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Old 10th October 2022, 19:39     #1745
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
It is a disorder that has really only existed since teenage girls discovered Tumblr and Instagram in about 2015.
Honestly still just gobsmacked by this, really.

It's sad that your possibility space for what it is to be a human being is so narrow, and that as a society we are, apparently, so insecure that we have to invalidate whole groups of people in this way.
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Old 10th October 2022, 20:26     #1746
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Read the specific words that I used.
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Old 10th October 2022, 21:40     #1747
Nothing
 
Oh, I did. I'm just not sure that the specific words that you used render what I'm saying irrelevant.

Like, are you saying that your whole entire problem is with "adolescent rapid onset gender dysphoria" and absolutely nothing else about trans, intersex and/or non-binary people? Because I've gotta say, if that's what you're now claiming is the whole problem, then it seems weird that previously you would have claimed that there were only two sexes/genders.

See, if that was what you were saying, then as I understand it you're happy with, for example, public funding for people transitioning as long as they don't have the sudden realisation that this is what they want specifically during their adolescent years. If they have that sudden realisation at the age of 21 instead of 17, you'd be okay with it because they wouldn't be an adolescent any more?

Are you telling me that this bit of it is literally the *only* bit that you really care about? Because what I'm saying is kinda more aimed at what I perceive as your whole attitude, given the history of the discussions we've had, and the various things you've been posting, rather than this one particular claim.
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Old 10th October 2022, 21:43     #1748
Nothing
 
Also, surely you don't think that just because a particular mental disposition in adolescents is only recently named and diagnosed implies that it *never existed prior to that point in time*? Things have to exist to be discovered. You get that, right?
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Old 11th October 2022, 00:14     #1749
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quick summary.

Sex in humans is binary and immutable. There are only two sexes; 99.98% of humanity is clearly identifiable as being on one of two developmental pathways. We do not have technology of a level to change an individual from one to the other.

Gender dysphoria is real, and incredibly rare, and historically it almost only ever affects boys, and those boys display that dysphoria early and it's obvious to everyone around them. This is different from the paraphilia of autogynephilia, which manifests itself in sexually mature men as arousal caused by the thought and sight of themselves as women. We're not talking about those fetishists.

For any young person to experience gender dysphoria is incredibly rare. For that young person to be female is unbelievably rare. For that young female person to suddenly become dysphoric, with no previous signs, is almost impossibly rare. For that young female person to suddenly display dysphoria as part of a group of young female people all suddenly displaying dysphoria together with no previous signs, ok now you're just fucking with me. It's so rare that there are basically no instances of it ever happening in recorded history until the past five years or so.

Fortunately there are instances of other psychological phenomena suddenly manifesting themselves in groups of young females so at least we have other points of reference. (Not always females, but usually.) Examples are anorexia, cutting, glossolalia, tremors, demonic possession, etc. We call these things "crazes". They are catchable and transmissible, and statistically girls on the autism spectrum are more susceptible to them.

Historically the remedy for such things is time. The sufferers just grow out of it; they realise “wow, puberty sucks for everyone” or "oh shit, I just have Aspergers" or "well fuck, I'm a lesbian". The people enabling them end up looking silly and hopefully apologetic. Sometimes individuals caught up in the crazes get hanged; sometimes they go to jail and die of cancer and the NZ Supreme Court only exonerates them after death.

However, two big and problematic differences exist with this craze:

1. An anorexic girl who gets over it can return to a normal weight. But a gender dysphoric girl who goes to a doctor who cuts off her breasts and cuts out her uterus and puts her on hormone replacement therapy is fucked for life. A boy who goes on puberty blockers will never experience orgasm or sexual pleasure. Ever.

2. There was no "demonic possession industry" that had a vested interest in girls permanently complaining about evil spirits and which made more money the more that girls spread the evil spirits to their friends. There were no cutting referral schemes. There were no "anorexia industry sector planners" making investment projections based on current rates of contagion. For this craze, there's all that stuff. In the USA, all that surgery and all that treatment is the sound of cash registers ringing for ever for the medical-industrial complex.
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Old 11th October 2022, 00:25     #1750
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
was a page full of 100%-binary-sex tales what you meant to post?
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Old 11th October 2022, 00:57     #1751
Nothing
 
Hmm. I guess you didn't get to page 3.
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Old 11th October 2022, 01:17     #1752
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
"In the early 21st century some people decided to call themselves something" isn't exactly compelling. Reclaiming a word? Sounds more like appropriating it.

Trivia: Tūtānekai is my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.
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Old 11th October 2022, 01:32     #1753
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
incredibly rare, incredibly rare. unbelievably rare. impossibly rare. It's so rare.
I mean, autism was incredibly rare too, until we started to develop a better understading of it and some effective diagnostic tools to identify it. But that doesn't imply that it didn't have the same prevalence then as it does now that we have the tools needed to identify it.

Given the narrow communications bandwidth in the prehistoric, pre-internet times, and the fact that most of that bandwidth was controlled by either large corporations or the state, there wasn't a whole lot of space or opportunities for people to share their experiences of dysphoria with a large audience, and since those things weren't easy to share most people who had those experiences didn't really know what to call it or how to have a conversation about it, or whether other people were having the same experiences.

Homosexuality was considered a disorder in the DSM-1, now it is widely recognised that an individual's sexual orientation is complex and not necessarily something susceptible to treatment or choice. So it's not unprecedented that something which is perceived as a disorder at one point can subsequently become a legitimate mode of being further down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Historically the remedy for such things is time. The sufferers just grow out of it; they realise “wow, puberty sucks for everyone” or "oh shit, I just have Aspergers" or "well fuck, I'm a lesbian".
Is realising "well fuck, I'm a lesbian" really growing out of it though? I acknowledge that there are some things that people do grow out of. Is it clear cut that Gender dysphoria is one of them? You seem very confident. I'm not so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
However, two big and problematic differences exist with this craze:

1. An anorexic girl who gets over it can return to a normal weight. But a gender dysphoric girl who goes to a doctor who cuts off her breasts and cuts out her uterus and puts her on hormone replacement therapy is fucked for life. A boy who goes on puberty blockers will never experience orgasm or sexual pleasure. Ever.

2. There was no "demonic possession industry" that had a vested interest in girls permanently complaining about evil spirits and which made more money the more that girls spread the contagion to their friends. There were no cutting referral schemes. There were no "anorexia industry sector planners" making investment projections based on current rates of contagion. For this craze, there's all that stuff. In the USA, all that surgery and all that treatment is the sound of cash registers ringing for ever for the medical-industrial complex.
1 depends on the assumption that there are a large number of people who regret their transition. But it seems like that's not really the case. It looks like the vast majority of them are generally happy with their transition. If you look at what the small number of trans people who did detransition say about their reasons for detransitioning, then you find that the vast majority of them basically cite the social recriminations heaped upon them by people who don't accept their identity. Only a small percentage of the very small percentage to detransition state that the reason was because transition was the wrong thing to have done in the first place.

2 is some a-grade tin-foil hat conspiracy juice.
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Old 11th October 2022, 01:53     #1754
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
1 depends on the assumption that there are a large number of people who regret their transition. But it seems like that's not really the case.
That's because adolescent rapid-onset gender dysphoria is so new there is, as previously observed, fuck-all data on the girls suffering from it; and there just hasn't been enough time since the emergence of the phenomenon for there to be enough girls who have developed it and had surgery for it and gone on with their lives and been contactable years later to be surveyed about it. Studies that show satisfaction among people who have transitioned are dominated by men who transitioned as adults and did so years ago. And they're happy about it because they're a) actually gender dysphoric, and b) they chose it as adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
2 is some a-grade tin-foil hat conspiracy juice.
You say conspiracy, I smell opportunity.

Quote:
The U.S. sex reassignment surgery market size was valued at USD 1.9 billion in 2021 and is expected to expand at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 11.23% from 2022 to 2030. The rising incidences of gender dysphoria and the increasing number of people opting for gender confirmation surgeries are expected to boost the growth during the forecast period.

The increasing number of sex reassignment surgeries in the U.S. is expected to propel the growth of the industry during the forecast period. According to the 2020 Plastic Surgery Statistics by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS), a 15% rise in breast or chest surgical procedures was reported in transgender male patients from 2019 to 2020.

The improving reimbursement scenario is also anticipated to positively impact the market growth during the forecast period.

As hospitals and clinics around the U.S. resume nonemergency services, the demand for gender-affirming operations is expected to accelerate in the coming years.

A growing number of healthcare specialists have been providing consultations via telehealth. This is anticipated to have a beneficial impact on the growth of the market in the upcoming years.

To learn more about this report, request a free sample copy.

Report Content:

Qualitative Analysis
Industry Overview
Industry trends
Market drivers and restraints
Market size
Growth prospects
Porter’s analysis
PESTEL analysis
Key market opportunities prioritized
Competitive landscape
Company overview
Financial performance
Product Benchmarking
Latest strategic developments

Quantitative Analysis
Market size, estimates, and forecast from 2017 to 2030
Market estimates and forecast for product segments up to 2030
Regional market size and forecast for product segments up to 2030
Market estimates and forecast for application segments up to 2030
Regional market size and forecast for application segments up to 2030
Company financial performance
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Old 11th October 2022, 07:35     #1755
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Weird side note, I was one of those. At 16, had no idea what I was, hated attention from guys, and took my fear and revulsion to mean I wasn't right and asked a doctor if I could get a hysterectomy as clearly, I didn't fit what society told me "woman" was.

He had a laugh and told me to think on it for the next 20 years or so.
20 years later, two kids later, I do look back and I only see the fear and lack of belonging, and the undeveloped kids brain that processed thought in absolutes due to lack of experience.

What's wrong is what society tells us woman and man is, not biologically, but culturally - and I can see all this shit getting a lot worse until we stop letting our kids be raised by marketing companies.
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Old 11th October 2022, 10:46     #1756
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
1 depends on the assumption that there are a large number of people who regret their transition. But it seems like that's not really the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab earlier in thread
…to get data on whether or not people regret or attempt to ameliorate their surgery in later life, you have to keep records of who received what surgery when and follow them up later. In the case of the recently-closed-down Tavistock centre in the UK, no such records were kept. Such was the religious fervour of the staff there, they were too busy performing surgeries on girls to keep records.
“Our data show no regrets!”
Are you collecting any data?
“No!”
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Old 11th October 2022, 10:50     #1757
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosWulf
stuff
Thanks for sharing that. Nowadays your doc would probably be censured or criminally prosecuted for performing conversion therapy on you instead of affirming your obvious transNess and scheduling you for surgery.
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Old 11th October 2022, 11:15     #1758
StN
I have detailed files
 
Heh - I see what you did there. I held off mentioning anything about riding around under an assumed name until Lorenzo found herself.
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Old 11th October 2022, 11:58     #1759
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
Heh - I see what you did there. I held off mentioning anything about riding around under an assumed name until Lorenzo found herself.
Hey man, I was a cop and good at my job!
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Old 11th October 2022, 12:39     #1760
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosWulf
Weird side note, I was one of those. At 16, had no idea what I was, hated attention from guys, and took my fear and revulsion to mean I wasn't right and asked a doctor if I could get a hysterectomy as clearly, I didn't fit what society told me "woman" was.

He had a laugh and told me to think on it for the next 20 years or so.
20 years later, two kids later, I do look back and I only see the fear and lack of belonging, and the undeveloped kids brain that processed thought in absolutes due to lack of experience.

What's wrong is what society tells us woman and man is, not biologically, but culturally - and I can see all this shit getting a lot worse until we stop letting our kids be raised by marketing companies.
Yeah, it's literal nightmare. There are clearly people who absolutely have real struggles with their gender identity for incredibly diverse reasons. And there are many who have some uncertainty or curiosity about who or what they are. And there is a great volume of people with a desperate need to belong, who suffer deprivation, who will do anything to get their needs met.

In an ideal world our healthcare services would be resourced enough to help people navigate all this.

They're not.

And so people are screwed by inequality on both ends.

And NOW the whole thing has essentially becoming meme-ified, and we all know how memes take on a life of their own far beyond their point of origin.

And then, THEN we're surprised that in our winner-takes-all society that people and organisations leverage this dynamic for their own agendas and gain.

Look at Ab's dramatic response, you can almost taste the dopamine.

Congrats on the kids CW. 😁
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