Zoom bends the knee

[Ab]

Admits that it ends meetings and bans users discussing Tiananmen Square and Hong Kong

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ience-to-china

[Ajax]

Quite a dilemma for Zoom because if they don't obey the PRC government's directives they get summarily blocked in China and lose a shitload of business.

[Lightspeed]

It probably goes both ways. There will be Chinese businesses chaffing at the laws they have to follow when offering services overseas. We'll see the laws as reasonable and just, they'll see the laws as more evidence of our flawed values.

[Ajax]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

We'll see the laws as reasonable and just, they'll see the laws as more evidence of our flawed values.

Perhaps. Can you think of any examples?

[Lightspeed]

Not really, no. Just recollections of discussions with people more familiar with life in China than myself. Thinking "well that makes sense" while also seeing it didn't to that person, opting to consider maybe there's more I don't know rather than assuring myself about how dodgy Chinese people are.

My understanding comes more from my knowledge of how the unconscious mind works, how values and beliefs unconsciously transmit, how we create "normal" in our minds. How it's impossible to completely observe oneself and what we tuck away in the parts we can't see.

Which is to say that when we're focused on the bogeyman elsewhere, we're blind to the bogeyman that is us.

If I had to work to find suffering in NZ, maybe my perception would be different. But horror is at our doors, in our homes but yet we have time for hating on the Chinese so far away.

[Ajax]

An article like that Guardian piece is not about hating on Chinese people or thinking they’re the boogeyman or whatever; it’s more of an expression of distaste for a political system that persists by suppressing their freedom of speech. Whether or not the CCP is truly supported by most Chinese at this point is difficult to evaluate because they have no other option and would be persecuted for speaking out against it. And while China may seem a long way away, that system is increasingly asserting itself in our part of the world.

[Lightspeed]

A more balanced article might call out disingenuous statements like this:

US senator Josh Hawley asked Yuan to “pick a side: American principles and free-speech, or short-term global profits and censorship”.

It isn't a choice between honourable US values or nefarious Chinese profits. There's no reflection on the US's own ambivalence in its relationship with China.

To help you appreciate my perspective, I see Western advertising as problematic as Chinese censorship. Both are tools and systems used to keep people's attention on that which those who enjoy the most power and authority determine is best.

I typically avoid the Guardian, it has a strong bias of the worst kind: my own.

[Ajax]

Every media outlet has some kind of bias; the difference is that Western outlets are more or less free to choose their angle. In China you may either support the regime or be silent. I don't think the point about advertising is very strong: it's a voluntary activity with controls placed on it largely to protect the consumer, not a systematic suppression of dissenting voices. And advertising is just as rampant in China as it is in the West.

[Lightspeed]

Western advertising is something some find at least distasteful, others find abhorrent. People similarly respond to government censorship. That's the point I'm trying to get across.

I'm also trying to shift away from the China vs West paradigm we're being served up. This isn't a guaranteed outcome, it's been set up this way.

So when you point to Chinese advertising what I hear from you is this:

"Sure we might have advertising, but look, look! China has advertising AND censorship! They're the bad ones! We're good. We're good dammit! *sobs*"

I would be curious about the nature of non-Western advertising, the kind of cues and hooks they try to exploit in people with, the similarities and differences.

[Lightspeed]

A point:

When I'm hungry on my drive home from work and I see a McDonald's sign with all that evokes after a lifetime of advertising. Is that voluntary?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ajax

Quite a dilemma for Zoom because if they don't obey the PRC government's directives they get summarily blocked in China and lose a shitload of business.

At least one of the activists whose account was closed is an American citizen in the United States and the account was created with Zoom US from within the United States.

[Ajax]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

So when you point to Chinese advertising what I hear from you is this:

"Sure we might have advertising, but look, look! China has advertising AND censorship! They're the bad ones! We're good. We're good dammit! *sobs*"

Not my words, nor my view. Tbh the issue of advertising is not really that relevant anyway. Lots of things in our society are considered distasteful by certain groups.

[Lightspeed]

And THAT is my point! All the fucking child rape and violence going on. HERE! Not someplace or sometime else. In this country, this week. With fuck all help for the victims, available services determined by politics.

Oh, but because it's been happening for at least a century, nothing to be done. Or some other bullshit that spins us away from how shocking the truth is. Certainly let's not look at how our way of life perpetuates atrocity at home.

Which is why I'm trying to clearly insist against getting caught up in unbalanced criticism of China. Because that's a fucking trap that's being laid for us.

[Ajax]

Bad things happen in NZ too? Hmm yes, that’s real food for thought.

Nobody is laying a trap for you. Discussion about freedom of speech and the policies of other governments is perfectly reasonable.

[Lightspeed]

Why are you posting? Seriously, what are you doing for you right now? I'm just wondering why you'd take the time to say nothing.

Discussion about freedom of speech and the policies of other governments is NOT perfectly reasonable. It exploits the us-and-them mentality we're all prone to, and intentionally so. Any such discussion needs to be undertaken critically, else we are prone to falling into these kinds of problematic thinking, which stopped serving us millennia ago.

Must be nice in fairy land where our vulnerabilities would never be exploited so that we might act against our interests in favour of those in a position to drive such discussion. NEVER.

[Ajax]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Discussion about freedom of speech and the policies of other governments is NOT perfectly reasonable.

LOL. You can go on posting about advertising and child rape like a crazy person but I'm done.

[Lightspeed]

If only you were done sooner.

[crocos]

Lightspeed, discussion about government censorship impinging on freedom of speech in the given context is quite reasonable, which is quite different to just general "I can say ANYTHING I like with NO CONSEQUENCES" freedom of bullshit that some conflate it as.
I agree it should be undertaken with critical thinking, but that is different from saying "Don't talk about <subject> because <completely separate disjointed subject>"

This does not mean that violence, rape etc happening in NZ isn't a thing at all - but what does that have to do with the topic that was being discussed? Nothing. If you want to start a another conversation about that feel free - but please don't try and warp an existing conversation, else the only responses you'll get will be negative.

[Lightspeed]

You've got it backwards crocos.

I've suggested these things go both ways. Chinese companies imposing US laws on companies operating in China, serving Chinese, for the sake of maintaining business relations in the US. I could only assume you're stupid or disingenuous if you are sceptical about this claim and need to see it demonstrated.

It is Ajax that has taken issue with my raising of this point. I'm not trying to suppress the idea that we have to bend over to deal with China. On the contrary I wish we would pay more attention to it. Ajax is the one attempting to divert me from raising the other side of the story.

I admit I've foolishly allowed the conversation astray, Ajax of course only looking to my comments to find something to challenge, hence we're talking about however grand free speech is, we're still raping our kids. Some reason that weighs. I'm so crazy, right? Crazy ole lolspeed.