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Old 9th July 2020, 19:59     #841
bradman
 
Go, go, go, just go
Go, go, go (we have)
Whatever it takes, rid this dictator
POTUS my tail, Ass debater
Prime-time Preemo, rhyme-time crime
Like no other in this lifetime
White house killer, dead in lifelines
Vote this joke out, or die tryin'
Unprecedented, demented, many president'd
Nazi Gestapo dictator defended
It's not what you think, it's what you follow
Run for them jewels, drink from that bottle
Another four years gonna gut y'all hollow
Gutted out, dried up, broke and can't borrow
State of the Union, shut the fuck up
Sorry ass motherfucker
Stay away from me
State of the Union, shut the fuck up
Sorry ass motherfucker
Stay away from me
State of the Union, shut the fuck up
Sorry ass motherfucker
Stay away from me
State of the Union, shut the fuck up
Sorry ass…
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Old 9th July 2020, 20:21     #842
Nich
 
Send through the FBI report, I'll read it. Fox news is biased and not credible.

Regarding school teachers, I'm thinking of Horace Mann reforming the US education system after seeing how the Prussians did it.

The Monopoly On Violence - Education
https://youtu.be/XWAEKQjN-yM?t=573

Imagine if the state-run school was your workplace:
- You are obligated to attend, your family is fined or thrown in jail if you do not attend
- Everyone stands at assembly and sings the national anthem
- There's the national flag on display
- All workers switch to the next designated activity when the bell rings
- You must ask for permission to go to the toilet
- Manager (teacher) is right, a worker (student) who corrects the manager is sent to HR for disciplinary meeting

Last edited by Nich : 9th July 2020 at 20:23.
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Old 9th July 2020, 21:09     #843
bradman
 
Mmmmm Schools havnt been quite like that for a while man, other than trying to teach kids.

I'm struggling to see your point, are you advocating anarchy? Do you have kids, and if so do you tell them to do things or let the run loose? Does that work?

Whats your job, are you obligated to attend? If so is it a facist organisation? Do they have meetings you have to go to? Is that facist?

Please look up another right wing talking point.
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Old 9th July 2020, 21:12     #844
bradman
 
As requested.

https://www.thenation.com/article/ac...ifa-trump-fbi/
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Old 9th July 2020, 21:23     #845
bradman
 
You realise this is a New Zealand based forum I assume, so struggle to understand why you use that 'The Monopoly On Violence - Education' in this particular arguement.

I'll use US based material to de-bunk your shite when required and NZ based material if required.

Begining to think belligerent is the best going forward.

Last edited by bradman : 9th July 2020 at 21:26.
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Old 10th July 2020, 02:53     #846
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Now we're getting somewhere, thank you.

I am going to settle for subsets of fascism because I don't see how any western country is anywhere close to a full spectrum fascist state.
You're welcome. But look, the fact that western countries haven't yet become explicitly fascist doesn't mean that we needn't concern ourselves with extant undercurrents of fascism. And in fact, given that inverted totalitarianism is a thing, we might think that we have a strong reason to be vigilant against the sort of bigoted fascist beliefs that might result in vulnerable minorities being targeted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
White nationalists are a joke and attract bugger all to their rallies
Depends on where you're looking, it's certainly the case that this is more true in New Zealand than it is in America, for example. But even here in New Zealand, the March 15th mosque shootings were arguably a very real act of stochastic terrorism.

Moreover, since BLM seems to be a topic coming up in this discussion a fair bit, I think it's relevant to point out that the events in Charlottesville would suggest that your assertion about white nationalists being a joke is at the very least false in America.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:57     #847
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
So let me get this right: if a different person is elected President/Trump is not re-elected, all the fascism/racism will disappear overnight because everyone just bases their entire world view on how the media reports the President to be?
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Old 10th July 2020, 11:55     #848
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
You're welcome. But look, the fact that western countries haven't yet become explicitly fascist doesn't mean that we needn't concern ourselves with extant undercurrents of fascism. And in fact, given that inverted totalitarianism is a thing, we might think that we have a strong reason to be vigilant against the sort of bigoted fascist beliefs that might result in vulnerable minorities being targeted.
Yes, this x100. It's not fascism though. It's a systemic wealth extraction, financial feudalism, and "magician's choice" when it comes to political candidates. It also meets it's "diversity quota" because it fucks everyone of any race, gender, and sexuality equally.

Quote:
Depends on where you're looking, it's certainly the case that this is more true in New Zealand than it is in America, for example. But even here in New Zealand, the March 15th mosque shootings were arguably a very real act of stochastic terrorism.

Moreover, since BLM seems to be a topic coming up in this discussion a fair bit, I think it's relevant to point out that the events in Charlottesville would suggest that your assertion about white nationalists being a joke is at the very least false in America.
Our racism is given to us by the media we consume. From left to right we're taught to see people by their inherent traits as a primary filter through which to judge their character. It's sanctimonious correcting of anglo historical tyranny on the left, and xenophobic anti-globalist racial pride on the right. Stories that confirm the righteousness of a position or condemn the other side are rewarded with clicks and advertising revenue. Change the funding incentive structure, and you'd change the world.

They are the new religions. And trolls like 4chan and PewDiePie think they are being clever by poking fun, but we're at a stage now where it is quite clearly a pathological fixation on race. Communication with the other side is impossible and not even desired, violence is the only solution. Making memes and poking fun only emboldens the zealots, and antagonizes the other.

I have more in common with a Sudanese Muslim in my income bracket than I do with a white heterosexual atheist whose wealth is managed out of Panama by Mossack Fonseca. The longer we squabble over the scraps, the more likely we all end up with zero wealth to pass on to our children. It'll be 10,000 people in the world with 8 yachts each, and 8 billion employees, tenants, and rent payers.
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Old 10th July 2020, 17:23     #849
Nich
 
Hopefully we can all agree that Chris Hedges is a respectable journalist. Here's his take on antifa / black bloc:

Chris Hedges, "America: The Farewell Tour"
https://youtu.be/GeE5WnTUsF8?t=3993
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Old 10th July 2020, 17:55     #850
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Yes, this x100. It's not fascism though.
Inverted totalitarianism is not fascism, that's true. But it's also true that it isn't incompatible with fascism. Moreover, the way education has become so much less accessible, and the way neoliberalism has systematically eviscerated funding for the arts within education, are probably major drivers of populism around the world. An educated and politically engaged public is much harder for fascists to influence. Inverted totalitarianism may not be fascism, but it has created an environment which is ripe for fascism to take hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Our racism is given to us by the media we consume.
I tend to think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Racism goes a little deeper than media, it's cultural as well. The media landscape does influence culture, but we could radically change the media landscape and most of the culture of racism would persist for quite some time - the media landscape in America now is unrecognisable compared to the media landscape in America 2 centuries ago, but the same racism still exists.
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Old 10th July 2020, 20:33     #851
Nich
 
To point 1: How can that be when the definitive example of a western fascist state rose from the ashes of Prussia complete with it's schooling system to mould young minds into good little nazis or good little blackshirts? If anything schools today are churning out good little Trotskys.

Lack of education is too risky for a power hungry ideological group to manage, people may educate themselves and form their own opinions. We can't have that! The trick is to "educate" them according to your nation's doctrine, and bayonet the one's that seed doubt....baynet their family incase people don't get the message.

To point 2: Today memes infect us through the media we consume. But in the past memes were delivered through education system, government policy, royal decree... whatever is the best vector of the day is how the idea virus gets in.

Whether it's education system, feudalism, memes, cancel culture, or media it is about narrative control and manufacturing uniform thought. No room for individual thought because you'll be "othered" (far right bigot, or snow flake liberal)
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Old 11th July 2020, 00:13     #852
Nothing
 
The problem with that is that a lot of what gets promoted under the banner of 'individualism' these days is really just prejudice masquerading as free speech. Most of the people who claim that they're 'educating themselves' and 'forming their own opinions' are really just idiots who think that an hour or two of confirmation bias fuelled googling makes them the intellectual equal of a real expert who has spent a decade or more studying.

You won't have any real hope of coming up with anything novel, innovative, or really individual, until and unless you already have a solid grounding in what has gone before. You need a good taxonomy of the intellectual landscape to be able to say anything interesting, else you're just going to be repeating stuff that smarter people have already said.

It's not that there's no room for individual thought, it's just that really engaging in individual thought is a lot harder than most of the people who wank on about it realise. And so most of the time, most of the shit that those people say isn't in any way individual, or original, at all.
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Old 11th July 2020, 00:15     #853
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Cheeky-ass smarter people. I'm fed up with them. Let me have a go.
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Old 11th July 2020, 03:31     #854
Nothing
 
'Cancel culture' doesn't stifle debate, but it does challenge the old order
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Old 11th July 2020, 11:59     #855
Nich
 
Yes, and some people who signed that "free speech" open letter have also used their platform to shut down pro-Israel speech. Everyone is smeared with at least a little crumb of shit. But unlike a cup of tea, that crumb of shit doesn't spoil the whole person.

I am all for challenging old order, especially when it is expoitative and net detrimental to most people. But cancel culture doesn't attack the problematic idea. It attacks the person. The volume can be dialled up (doxxing, concerned emails to employer, SWATTING) until the cost of openly sharing the idea far exceeds the benefit. The idea survives unchallenged, the person is destroyed. Cancel culture also looks into one's past to increase attack surface as required. Justin Trudeau is a marked man for his love of black face, but for now he is a useful idiot. That crumb of shit will spoil him as a person, it's just a matter of time before the switch is flipped.

Also, a juicy cancel culture story will get lots of media ad revenue left to right because liberals love a show trial, and conservatives get to talk about free speech some more.

Ok, individual thought is a non-starter. How about if I call it "thought that doesn't comport with sacred ideologies". My point is that it doesn't help that there are 2 well worn ideological ruts in the road and the expectation is that a person and their opinion stack fits into one or the other.
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Old 11th July 2020, 17:18     #856
The Edge
 
https://twitter.com/TBPInvictus/stat...107776/photo/1
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Old 11th July 2020, 18:02     #857
Lightspeed
 
Cancel culture is consequences for people more used to imposing consequences.

Unless you're talking about how people get minimum wage managers fired from their disposable jobs by carefully filming a reaction while omitting the goading. But that'd be conflating two different things.
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Old 11th July 2020, 20:13     #858
Nich
 
Yes, I am talking about the Charles Murray type of cancel culture. Blocking the person's ability to be heard, stopping the audience from hearing an idea, and in some cases attacking the venue for hosting the problematic person.

I agree that this is about retribution. I am happy to be wrong on this, but it appears to me we're seeing the rise of just another mob dictating allowable opinions. Not replacing the old world, just adding a new layer. More restrictions for the rest of us, and more fear of sharing one's true opinion lest ye unknowingly offend one mob or the other.

I predict more lying about opinions to avoid being targeted. "Become a gray person" I've heard it put. No stance on anything. Try as best as possible to be completely invisible and unremarkable.
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Old 11th July 2020, 21:56     #859
Lightspeed
 
Rwanda is evidence enough that not everyone should have equal access to platforms and audiences. No one is owed a mass audience. If you have something worth hearing, people will make the effort to ensure your message gets across. If your message only works when its dissemination is easy, then what value can it really have?

Losing your place at the trough is not the same as worrying about jackboots with machine guns at your door.
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Old 12th July 2020, 02:35     #860
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Ok, individual thought is a non-starter. How about if I call it "thought that doesn't comport with sacred ideologies". My point is that it doesn't help that there are 2 well worn ideological ruts in the road and the expectation is that a person and their opinion stack fits into one or the other.
Doesn't matter what you call them really, dunning-kruger thoughts are still dunning-kruger thoughts.
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Old 12th July 2020, 02:36     #861
Lightspeed
 
I'm really good at noticing Dunning-Kruger thoughts.
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Old 12th July 2020, 03:09     #862
Nothing
 
I like the way you capitalised the letters, because they're actually names. Well done you.
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Old 12th July 2020, 12:43     #863
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Rwanda is evidence enough that not everyone should have equal access to platforms and audiences. No one is owed a mass audience. If you have something worth hearing, people will make the effort to ensure your message gets across. If your message only works when its dissemination is easy, then what value can it really have?

Losing your place at the trough is not the same as worrying about jackboots with machine guns at your door.
Agreed in the case of people and groups who risk shortening the lives of others through physical, mental, or economic violence. Impossible to properly detect before the damage is done, however.

Re Dunning-Kruger: You're missing my point.
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Old 12th July 2020, 18:22     #864
bradman
 
I've been logging in to NZG every day or two lately, though it seems like a hate watch thing to tell the truth.

Man, nich - I've scanned a few threads and you seem like a hard out trump apologist trying to hide a bit.

And failing.
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Old 12th July 2020, 18:58     #865
Lightspeed
 
Naw, that's not it.

Nich is like many of us, someone with a lot on their mind in a world that produces far more information than our capacity to process. And we're all vulnerable to being tilted this way and that.

Nich does seem a bit on the edge. My concern is that might be the right place to be. Maybe not that specific edge, but perhaps we're all huddling around a comfortable and deadly centre instead of diving out into something painful and survivable. Perhaps.

Trump definitely is where he is cause shit is crazy.
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Old 12th July 2020, 20:33     #866
Nich
 
Taleb's Skin In The Game has a quote that rang true for me:
Quote:
I am, at the Fed level, libertarian; at the state level, Republican; at the local level, Democrat; and at the family and friends level, a socialist.


I am not conveying my idea very well. But Ayishat Akanbi is much more articulate on the issue (starts at 3 min mark):
https://youtu.be/Sni7ghqHBJw
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Old 12th July 2020, 23:37     #867
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Here’s an example of how it works

https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/stat...93002986336256
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Old 13th July 2020, 00:25     #868
Lightspeed
 
So what, the experience of any minority since forever? Where a word from the right person at the right time can fuck your shit up, with no recourse for you? We've just now decided to call it cancel culture now it's hitting those who usually are doing the fucking?
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Old 13th July 2020, 08:46     #869
fixed_truth
 
Companies, businesses and institutions should have the right to protect their reputation from an employees public behavior.

This guy has a long history of public feuds with social justice activists and what he tweeted does read like it's promoting that being transgender is some kind of hysteria related mental or behavioural disorder.

The crux of the matter is about the consequences of free speech and who gets to decide these consequences.
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Old 13th July 2020, 10:06     #870
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
What guy?
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Old 13th July 2020, 10:25     #871
fixed_truth
 
Colin Wright
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Old 13th July 2020, 11:06     #872
Nich
 
Instead of reducing everyone's opportunities to the typical "minority experience" (tall poppy, regressive). What if we were already in a transition that ensured minorities were given the same opportunities as the typical "majority experience" (underdog, merit-based, progressive)? I would argue this is well underway, but some people think it isn't moving fast enough. The groupthink ensures we continue to play a zero sum game.
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Old 13th July 2020, 11:06     #873
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
what he tweeted does read like it's promoting that being transgender is some kind of hysteria related mental or behavioural disorder.
um no it totally does not, and you characterising it as if it does is a great example of the problem.

"so what you're saying is... transgender people are insane?"
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Old 13th July 2020, 12:08     #874
fixed_truth
 
It definitely does. Read the first line. Parents on Facebook use their phycology experience to diagnose their transgendered kids friends as maybe having gender dysphoria!?!

The premise is weak and add in the context of this guy's axe to grind & it totally reads as someones lazied attempt to score a hit.
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Old 13th July 2020, 12:23     #875
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Again, you prove the point. He didn't write that. Someone else did.
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Old 13th July 2020, 13:11     #876
Nich
 
more from Chris Hedges: Fascism in the Age of Trump
https://youtu.be/BMYjroVIDLA

So long as we're occupied squabbling over racism, cancel culture, trans rights true power will never be challenged. So long as we're in debt and have zero savings we are slaves and our consent can be bought. Protesting in the streets is predictable, and hurts people like us far more than it hurts the people we are protesting.
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Old 13th July 2020, 13:28     #877
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Again, you prove the point. He didn't write that. Someone else did.
So post a tweet of whatever you want and that's fine?
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Old 13th July 2020, 13:34     #878
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
more from Chris Hedges: Fascism in the Age of Trump
https://youtu.be/BMYjroVIDLA

So long as we're occupied squabbling over racism, cancel culture, trans rights true power will never be challenged. So long as we're in debt and have zero savings we are slaves and our consent can be bought. Protesting in the streets is predictable, and hurts people like us far more than it hurts the people we are protesting.


It's connected. This is the sort of rant I usually give after the third bottle on a Friday night but it's Monday and I'm not drinking at the moment so this feels kinda weird, but bear with me.

1. modernity transformed us all into active individuals on our own special journeys. The Protestant Reformation gave me a personal relationship with Jebus based on the penitence in my own heart. The Industrial Revolution made me and my clothing choices a driver of international change. Consumerism of the 20th century was based on convenience and customisation of goods and services based on what I personally want. HOLY SHIT I AM SO FUCKING IMPORTANT.

2. unfettered Friedmanesque neoliberal economics since the 70s has massively decreased social mobility and opportunity and created a new feudalism under which the few get an increasingly large share of the pie and more power in the system. GODDAMMIT I AM INSIGNIFICANT AND LESS INFLUENTIAL BY THE DAY.

3. 1&2 together cause massive anxiety and tension. They can't both be true. I was brought up getting told that I'm a modern autonomous agent, but now that I'm adulting the world treats me like a disposable object and the rich are just getting richer and richer while I can't even afford kids or a house or a job. IT'S NOT FAIR.

4. anxious and tense individuals seek reassurance and protection from their groups. We're social apes. So individuals become hung up on group identity and start focusing on the tribal displays that reinforce tribal status. Showing off in-group membership is the only thing that makes us not terrified that inequality is kicking us in our autonomous individual nuts. Hence why virtue-signalling social justice warriors.

5. Along comes a set of tech designed to amplify the anxiety of social apes, and the tech gets better at the amplification the more anxious the apes get.

armorking
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Old 13th July 2020, 14:07     #879
fixed_truth
 
I reckon a lot of that alienation would improve with a more participatory democracy.
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Old 13th July 2020, 15:15     #880
Cyberbob
 
A more participatory democracy would feed the need for self importance, but achieve very little. I don't want a more participatory democracy, but the sheer fact that I don't want every uneducated, anti-science, anti-progress, racist, *-ist nut bag having the same weight as the most educated and most progressive people, makes me a terrible person. If a person in the public eye said that on Twitter, they'd have 35 million people seeking to destroy every facet of their life within 30 seconds.

I know it's airy-fairy without a lot of substance to say so, but there seems to be way too many people (globally, not just here) looking at the symptoms and calling them the problem. Trump, Antifa, Truthers, cancel culture, politically tribal corporations, the lot. All of this is exactly the same as it's always been, but more so.
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Last edited by Cyberbob : 13th July 2020 at 15:19.
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