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Old 2nd November 2017, 14:42     #81
Macca@Work
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
It sounds like you've put up with bullshit. I get if you're feeling unheard in your pain, that hearing about how you're somehow privileged can ring hollow.
No you're wrong.I got on with my life and and made something of it.
Life is too short for wasting it on the past.
I'm not interested in playing the victim card.(He was a victim of society etc..)
I'm just pointing out to you and others here how stupid and uneducated
some people are here by posting cliches. (He's white so he's GOTTA be rich..right?)

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Old 2nd November 2017, 14:50     #82
Lightspeed
 
I get that. But I mean, there's all kinds of nonsense in this thread, that's what caught you.

Frankly, power and privilege are real things all humans indulge in as we're able. And as we enjoy more power and privilege, the less we like to talk about it. But experience shows that the more concentrated power gets the more damaging it becomes to our way of life. So we need to talk about it, even if clumsily.

Even if we've cooked up ourselves a story of how I've had it tough, but all on my own I've made something for myself and it's all mine, don't you dare take that away from me, and so on.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 15:01     #83
Macca@Work
 
Let's leave it at then.You don't understand where I'm coming from and I didn't cook up any story on how tough my life is.
If you think thats a work of fiction to elicit sympathy then you don't know nor
care to know what others go through.
Peace.

I'm getting too old to get into flame wars.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 15:09     #84
Lightspeed
 
You misunderstand, I don't mean story as in a work of fiction, I mean a story as in a narrative.

I'm not interested in a flame war either. Just because I'm challenging you, doesn't mean I'm combative. I don't know what ZoSo and bradman have going on, I'm not part of that.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 15:35     #85
fixed_truth
 
My issue with the idea of meritocracy and personal responsibility is that although it is an intuitive idea(s), it’s actually not really grounded in reality as in fact we are all pretty much products of our environment. So when someone does well in society, as well as patting them on the back we need to look at the ways they were conditioned and nurtured into where they are. Through this examination of our preconceived notions about meritocracy not only does it show us things we need to be putting in place as a society; it also allows us to see those failing in society in a more accurate light.

For example, a lot of the kids who really excel academically weren’t born fundamentally different to other kids it’s that they almost always come from stable, well-resourced families that from a young age have been pushed hard by parents.

Now even if we do start to look at things in terms of cause and effect or inputs and outputs people still let ideologies get in the way. Talk about increasing social services (increasing DPB, feeding kids at school, UBI, increasing benefits) and people are quick to assert things like doing so will mean people won’t want to work or will have kids for money when in fact for most beneficiaries’ this extra support will take a lot of financial pressure off, they’ll be less stressed, provide more for their kids, be better role models etc. etc. Hell even if a punitive approach to welfare did change people’s life for the better (which it doesn’t) it’s still not a humane approach particularly when we can get better outcomes through supporting people through changing their environment for the better.

End first NZG rant in ages
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 2nd November 2017 at 15:36.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 15:45     #86
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
isn't that the basis of National's last few years of welfare policy?

Spending thousands of dollars on at-risk kids now saves milions of dollars on fucked-up adults later.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 16:05     #87
fixed_truth
 
National did the bare minimum they had to to undercut Labour rather than a real commitment to change. Had this not been alongside 9 years of beneficiary bashing and public sector under funding then it might have seemed like a genuine concern.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 16:15     #88
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
isn't that the basis of National's last few years of welfare policy?
Policy maybe. In practice, I don't think so.

They canned the most cost-effective approach: accessibly early childhood centres sufficiently funded for at least one masters level trained child specialist. There are countless positive flow-on effects to this, and they reinforce over subsequent generations. Although I guess we have to be satisfied with the 3-9 years Labour & co get every 9 or so years.

And CYF is jacked up. It's a vulnerable organisation charged with protecting our most vulnerable. You can't dick around with it to satisfy policy. Traumatised families and budget & policy demands are pretty much impossible things to juggle. A fucking nightmare.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:18     #89
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca@Work
Actually my teachers hated me because I wasnt good at maths sports or chess.
My dad was not far off being an alchaholic and was prone to be violent and abusive on occasions.
Nope.Got a student loan and payed it off.
You mean did I have my own palatial room at middlemore?Nope.
Nope.I had to bite the bullet and work part time and study
which was proberbly what contributed to my break down.
Yessiree us rich honkies...
Sorry Crackass but even for you your post is bulllshit.

Dude, you asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca@Work
Whats this "white privilaged dudes? " bullshit?
I was explaining privilege, not saying you were necessarily a beneficiary of said privilege which is why things were couched as questions rather than statements.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:03     #90
Macca@Work
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Dude, you asked:

I was explaining privilege, not saying you were necessarily a beneficiary of said privilege which is why things were couched as questions rather than statements.
Ok.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:37     #91
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Dude, you asked:

I was explaining privilege, not saying you were necessarily a beneficiary of said privilege which is why things were couched as questions rather than statements.
It's a pretty subjective statement isn't it? Also I don't really accept blanket statements that people make based upon someone's race, gender, etc.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 13:28     #92
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
It's a pretty subjective statement isn't it? Also I don't really accept blanket statements that people make based upon someone's race, gender, etc.
Uh, what are you talking about? I merely gave some examples of things that can give a leg-up that aren't in your control; of privilege.

What statement are you talking about?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 14:17     #93
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
It wasn't until I was well beyond childhood that it ever entered my head that not everyone grew up surrounded by books and music.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 19:03     #94
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Uh, what are you talking about? I merely gave some examples of things that can give a leg-up that aren't in your control; of privilege.

What statement are you talking about?
I'm meaning when someone makes stereotypical statements 'white male privilege'.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 23:45     #95
fixed_truth
 
What's stereotypical about it?
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Old 4th November 2017, 00:27     #96
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
I'm meaning when someone makes stereotypical statements 'white male privilege'.
It's true, many use these terms and others with little insight into their origin or intended application. Is it helpful to let how stupid people apply these terms dictate the value of their insight?

The roots of concepts like white male privilege exist in generations of disciplined academic research that continues to have significant real world impact.

Getting a handle on the complex dynamics that govern our lives is an important step in growing human agency. Concepts like "white male privilege" is some of what pops out.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:32     #97
xor
 
I don't understand how a blanket statement like that can be accepted academically. Or is it a wealth/class thing?

My rationale behind it is because there are plenty of 'white' males who are lacking in life and aren't exactly privileged. E.g. Divorced parents, poor, drug/alcohol addictions, deviancy, etc. How would that get accounted for in such research?
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:32     #98
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
I don't understand how a blanket statement like that can be accepted academically. Or is it a wealth/class thing?

My rationale behind it is because there are plenty of 'white' males who are lacking in life and aren't exactly privileged. E.g. Divorced parents, poor, drug/alcohol addictions, deviancy, etc. How would that get accounted for in such research?
Except that it isn't a blanket statement - it's a descriptor for how certain forces within particular societies operate. Just like any other field it's a piece of jargon to condense a whole lot of ideas into a short phrase that saves time in discussions within the field (instead of having to qualify every little thing - one phrase instead of 5 pages of explaining).

If you seriously want to understand some of rationales behind it I do strongly suggest just having a look at the wikipedia page on the idea - it's pretty good and does cover where the idea came from, what fields constituted it (and how different fields constitute it differently), how it has developed over time AND the critiques of it (including all the questions you asked above about how things are accounted for in research) as a term and where it has weakness.

Quote:
Cory Weinburg, writing for Inside Higher Ed, has also stated that the concept of white privilege is frequently misinterpreted by non-academics because it is an academic concept that has been recently been brought into the mainstream.
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Old 4th November 2017, 11:40     #99
Macca@Work
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
What's stereotypical about it?
R U SRS?
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Old 4th November 2017, 13:58     #100
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
Except that it isn't a blanket statement - it's a descriptor for how certain forces within particular societies operate. Just like any other field it's a piece of jargon to condense a whole lot of ideas into a short phrase that saves time in discussions within the field (instead of having to qualify every little thing - one phrase instead of 5 pages of explaining).

If you seriously want to understand some of rationales behind it I do strongly suggest just having a look at the wikipedia page on the idea - it's pretty good and does cover where the idea came from, what fields constituted it (and how different fields constitute it differently), how it has developed over time AND the critiques of it (including all the questions you asked above about how things are accounted for in research) as a term and where it has weakness.
I've read some literature, though i'm yet to find a balanced literature review from the likes of Peggy McIntosh re: negatives of being a male. To me that seems like her research has bias. Or perhaps I'm not researching enough?
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Old 4th November 2017, 17:00     #101
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca@Work
R U SRS?
Yeah bro, everyone with white skin gets advantage from this.

This article explains things without too much twaddle.

Quote:
White privilege does not mean that we whites don’t face hardships or have to work to succeed. While white privilege does give us advantages over people of color, it does not confer advantages in relation to other whites. The advantages of birth, wealth, connections, luck, skill, hard work, all continue to apply to us. We still compete with other whites. We don’t, however, have to compete on equal footing with non-whites. That’s why a white person can be poor and still have white privilege. We know the child of a rich white family has advantages over the child of a poor white family. There are times when the child of a rich black family may have some advantages over the child of a poor white family, but white privilege means that there are times when race will give the white child an advantage.
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Old 4th November 2017, 22:50     #102
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
I've read some literature, though i'm yet to find a balanced literature review from the likes of Peggy McIntosh re: negatives of being a male. To me that seems like her research has bias. Or perhaps I'm not researching enough?
I don't get what you're saying? Is it you think there's a lack of literature into the struggles of men? Or do you expect "white male privilege" to be somehow proven in a way that satisfies you?
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:52     #103
pxpx
 
White Privilege on the internet is really only used as a tool to silence and undermine opinions/viewpoints.

Anyways, what a lucky break for Jacinda and Co getting their token offer to take some refugees rejected
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Old 6th November 2017, 15:07     #104
Lightspeed
 
Do you think privilege (white or otherwise) is being used to silence and undermine any opinions or viewpoints in this case?

To be fair, a sound argument also may be used to silence and undermine opinions/viewpoints.

I'll point out that when the NZG massive has been in full swing (i.e. three people with the same opinion posting at the same time), belittlement has been an accepted tool for silencing opinion. So it's not like we have some high standard of discourse here all of a sudden.
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Old 6th November 2017, 15:46     #105
crocos
 
Shut up, Ashley!
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Old 6th November 2017, 15:55     #106
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Jacinda doing all the right things, Turnbull looks like a prick.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-0...s-time/9120028
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Old 6th November 2017, 15:59     #107
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
I don't think Turnbull is too worried about looking like a dick.

Jacinda went over there to meet Malcolm and ask for some refugees in exchange for lower tertiary fees for NZ students in Aus. She failed. Malcolm is not bovvered.
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Old 6th November 2017, 16:10     #108
Lightspeed
 
She's generating moral authority on the cheap. Of course Turnbull doesn't care, but it's not about him. It's about everyone else looking on. A Western leader with moral authority is a curiosity these days, it will attract attention.

And what's great is the morally bankrupt have no effective response, we'll all see how pathetic they really are as they weep and gnash.
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Old 6th November 2017, 16:24     #109
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Moral authority doesn't help NZers living in Aus, which is who Ardern purported to be helping.
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Old 6th November 2017, 16:35     #110
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
And what's great is the morally bankrupt have no effective response
Except to basically ignore her, as Turnbull has done.
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Old 6th November 2017, 17:10     #111
Lightspeed
 
I would call that an ineffective response. It does nothing to shift the perception that Australia are being a bunch of cunts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Moral authority doesn't help NZers living in Aus, which is who Ardern purported to be helping.
But it does. This is what's so great about this approach. Either Jacinda helps NZers by convincing the Aussie government to change its ways. Or Jacinda helps NZers by undermining the authority of the leadership responsible for NZers hardships.

Either way Turnbull loses.
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Old 6th November 2017, 19:12     #112
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Do you think privilege (white or otherwise) is being used to silence and undermine any opinions or viewpoints in this case?

To be fair, a sound argument also may be used to silence and undermine opinions/viewpoints.

I'll point out that when the NZG massive has been in full swing (i.e. three people with the same opinion posting at the same time), belittlement has been an accepted tool for silencing opinion. So it's not like we have some high standard of discourse here all of a sudden.

Nah I don't think the white privilege card gets pulled out much on NZG, all of our opinions are equally worthless
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Old 6th November 2017, 19:19     #113
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
o_O

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I would call that an ineffective response. It does nothing to shift the perception that Australia are being a bunch of cunts.



But it does. This is what's so great about this approach. Either Jacinda helps NZers by convincing the Aussie government to change its ways. Or Jacinda helps NZers by undermining the authority of the leadership responsible for NZers hardships.

Either way Turnbull loses.


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Old 7th November 2017, 08:02     #114
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
But it does. This is what's so great about this approach. Either Jacinda helps NZers by convincing the Aussie government to change its ways. Or Jacinda helps NZers by undermining the authority of the leadership responsible for NZers hardships.
Turnbull doesn't need NZ to undermine his authority, he can do it all by himself
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:23     #115
Lightspeed
 
Definitely low hanging fruit for Labour.
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Old 7th November 2017, 15:01     #116
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Muppetry in the House today:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...s-in-the-house

Quote:
The Government has had to cave to the Opposition's demands on its first day in the House after it failed to have the numbers to comfortably elect its new Speaker, Trevor Mallard.

National and Labour have been clashing for days over the Government's plans to cut opposition MPs out of select committees.

Leader of the House Chris Hipkins had proposed the number of committee seats be reduced to 96, meaning 11 National MPs would miss out.

National jumped on Labour's failure to count how many MPs it had in the House when electing its new Speaker on Tuesday and used it to their own advantage to get 108 MPs on select committees.

National's shadow leader of the House Simon Bridges said he could see the "situation evolving and who was away" and brought that to Hipkins' attention.

"It was a disorganised government that we saw today that didn't know its numbers, which meant we were able to get what we thought was important and what is important for New Zealanders."

"I hope the new government has learnt a lesson and will pick up its act," he said.

It's understood the government had the numbers to elect Mallard but fell for National's bluff as the pressure ramped up in the House and things ground to a halt while a deal was done.

The shambles began when Labour MP Ruth Dyson rose to nominate Mallard for the Speaker role.

Bridges immediately raised a point of order asking for clarification about whether absent MPs, who hadn't been sworn in on Tuesday morning, had a vote on the Speaker role.

As the House took a break to work out the order, Bridges taunted the government with shouts of "where's Winston when you need him?"

Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Trade Minister David Parker have both already left for APEC in Vietnam and several other government MPs including, Labour's Poto Williams and Priyanca Radhakrishnan and the Greens' Gareth Hughes, were also absent.

That meant National could "assume the majority", leader Bill English said.

During the commotion in the House it became apparent National's nomination for deputy speaker, Anne Tolley, could end up as Speaker.

"It was always possible but we came to an agreement," English said.

Hipkins, who was under pressure and had embarrassingly not done a count of MPs, had to concede to the Opposition and give them their 108 MPs on select committees along with five chairs and five deputy chairs.
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Old 7th November 2017, 15:23     #117
Lightspeed
 
Oh, snap.
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Old 7th November 2017, 15:36     #118
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
So Labour has fucked up and given National what it wanted anyway. Not a great start.

If Bridges was bluffing and Labour actually HAD the votes that would be extra lolsome.
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Old 7th November 2017, 15:52     #119
ZoSo
 
Smile and Wave 2.0/Smile and Hugs 1.0, can help them outside. Probably not inside.
Although H2 will likely thrash them back into line.
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Old 7th November 2017, 19:17     #120
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
OMG Labour actually had the numbers, Bridges was bluffing. Hipkins fell for it.
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