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Old 28th November 2017, 19:49     #121
fixed_truth
 
Yeah in Geddis's lastest column he acknowledges Quin's knowledge and experience in Rwanda. Though he (Geddis) does have some good information about the process of Ghahraman becoming an intern and later becoming 'a paid member of a legal team' etc.
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Old 28th November 2017, 19:55     #122
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Who cares how the photo was described? The problem is that the guy she's hamming it up with in the photo was part of a genocide that killed millions of people, and she's been getting political mileage out of claiming that she was on the PROSECUTION team. Fuck, I understand the importance of a fair trial but if I were at Nuremberg I wouldn't be getting snaps of me yukking it up with Hermann Goering, and I sure wouldn't volunteer to try to get him acquitted and then take credit for sending him to the gallows.
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Old 28th November 2017, 20:01     #123
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Guardian interview



Green Party website



Wikipedia entry




Note: not true
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Old 28th November 2017, 20:18     #124
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Who cares how the photo was described?
I'm not an expert in these things, I rely on journalist integrity. If we're calling photographs selfies, which I understand to be an intimate and spontaneous photographs taken by one of the subjects, then I'm wondering about the quality of the other statements being made.

Her LinkedIn profile, which I assume was written by her, accurately details her work in Rwanda. So, given the clear spin factor your friend seems unable to refrain from, I'm thinking there's less to the inaccurate statements than is being made out.
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Old 28th November 2017, 20:43     #125
fixed_truth
 
Yeah she's also openly discussed her role in other interviews so this goes against claims of actively engaging in deception.
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Old 28th November 2017, 21:01     #126
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
“Oh is that what my interviewer/my bio on the Greens website/my Wikipedia entry says? I wouldn’t know, I’ve never read them.”

There’s active deception and there’s bending over backwards to avoid correcting “unfortunate inaccuracies”. Either way the intention is the same - to benefit from people believing something untrue.
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Old 28th November 2017, 21:10     #127
Lightspeed
 
That may well be the case. But what we're hearing about is selfies and how terrible defence lawyers are.

You can't use spin to call out spin.
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Old 28th November 2017, 21:58     #128
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
What’s wrong with defense lawyers?
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:02     #129
fixed_truth
 
Nothing. Hence why criticisms about her becoming a defense lawyer are a beat up.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:51     #130
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
That may well be the case. But what we're hearing about is selfies and how terrible defence lawyers are.

You can't use spin to call out spin.
Actually it wasn't her as a defense lawyer that was called into question; it was the voluntary nature of it (casting aspersions on her integrity and ethics) and the lies around her being on the prosecution team when she was not (again questioning both ethics and integrity) - though there's little direct evidence she perpetrated those lies. And all of this because she made the ill-considered decision to pose in a photo with someone she was defending, someone that was later convicted on genocide charges.

Admittedly there was other spin in the article around her throwing equivalence-shade by presenting falsehoods as fact and a lot of questioning of her ethics, but to me that part of it is doing her job as a defense lawyer.

Frankly from reading that article, I don't actually have any issues with her acting as defense. The photo was a dumb idea by a young, inexperienced lawyer.
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Last edited by crocos : 29th November 2017 at 10:55.
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Old 29th November 2017, 14:39     #131
Jodi
 
I was under the impression that the person she was defending was acquitted on all counts, cos, you know, innocent and all.

But lets not let that get in the way of a good dirt slinging.
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Old 29th November 2017, 14:50     #132
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
I was under the impression that the person she was defending was acquitted on all counts, cos, you know, innocent and all.

But lets not let that get in the way of a good dirt slinging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Simon Bikindi (born 28 September 1954) is a Rwandan singer-songwriter who was formerly very popular in Rwanda. His patriotic songs were playlist staples on the national radio station Radio Rwanda during the war from October 1990 to July 1994 before the Rwandan Patriotic Front took power. He was tried and convicted for incitement to genocide by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) in 2008.
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Old 29th November 2017, 16:30     #133
blynk
 
I'm agree with a couple of the comments above.
If she tried to work for the prosecution (hell she may have tried) she wouldn't have stood a chance. They probably had lines of people willing to help out.

So do some work for the defence team - which in a way is still Human Rights - get the experience and move on.

The deception? I don't know. I'm sure if anyone wanted to actually find out about her past they could have.

The wiki post - it's wiki. Who wrote that? Her, the greens, someone other random editor?
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Old 30th November 2017, 00:58     #134
Lightspeed
 
Looks like Quin is prone to a bit of overexcitement:



I get it. You see enough horrible shit, you jump at any opportunity to stand up to that shit.
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Old 30th November 2017, 07:47     #135
fixed_truth
 
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Old 30th November 2017, 10:03     #136
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
I'm agree with a couple of the comments above.
If she tried to work for the prosecution (hell she may have tried) she wouldn't have stood a chance. They probably had lines of people willing to help out.

So do some work for the defence team - which in a way is still Human Rights - get the experience and move on.

The deception? I don't know. I'm sure if anyone wanted to actually find out about her past they could have.

The wiki post - it's wiki. Who wrote that? Her, the greens, someone other random editor?
Some kiwi wiki editor wrote it as part of the initial creation of the page, and his reference was a stuff article...
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:53     #137
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The lie that she prosecuted criminals in Rwanda was repeated on the Greens website, and by leader James Shaw.
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Old 30th November 2017, 14:35     #138
fixed_truth
 
The text I saw from the Green website talked broadly about being part of the judicial process & didn't even mention defense or prosecution.
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Old 30th November 2017, 14:47     #139
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
this I grabbed before the most recent edits:

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Old 30th November 2017, 14:53     #140
Lightspeed
 
That doesn't mention prosecuting perpetrators of the Rwanda genocide.

If you want to put people through a legitimate trial, you need defence lawyers.
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Old 30th November 2017, 15:10     #141
crocos
 
Frankly despite whatever the thing is, it's a storm in a teacup. Bloody irrelevant in any real sense - those fussing over the wording must have too much time on their hands
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Old 1st December 2017, 02:36     #142
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
That doesn't mention prosecuting perpetrators of the Rwanda genocide.

If you want to put people through a legitimate trial, you need defence lawyers.
Agreed. But it's fucking low for those defence lawyers to then advance their careers by taking credit for being prosecutors.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:34     #143
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
I don't believe that she has gone around telling blatant lies. Sounds more like her past has been misrepresented by others, and we can't assume it was intentional - because innocent until proven guilty, right?

I very much doubt she became part of the Greens based solely on a claim to have been a prosecutor in that particular case. One would expect she has other experience, attributes and qualities that justify her existence in that role. To say she "advanced her career" based on telling a lie is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps in this case your judgment is clouded by your personal relationship with the original claimant.
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Old 1st December 2017, 14:35     #144
xor
 
I believe it was intentional. It's the party responsibility to vet their candidates.

Surely fellow party members would find it an interesting conversation to have with Golriz Ghahraman about her time during those trials? Those are pretty monumental in terms of events happening in someone's life. It shows how little research journo's do these days.
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Old 1st December 2017, 14:49     #145
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Very angry

Ask a good friend to describe what you do in your job, and see if they make any obvious errors.

I'd hold off burning her as a witch until we know if she floats.
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Old 1st December 2017, 15:02     #146
xor
 
These would be more than just interviews though. These are party members that you'd build relationships with, build upon ideologies, discuss ideas etc. They would spend a lot of time together, especially on the lead up to an election. It doesn't add up that you just wouldn't bring up in a conversation that you've defended genocidal dictators.

It would be naive at best to believe it's unintentional.
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Old 1st December 2017, 15:58     #147
Jodi
 
Oh wow, my source on twitter was wrong. What a shock. :-)

Happy to be corrected.
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Old 1st December 2017, 15:58     #148
Macca@Work
 
Whats the difference between the Green Party and Communists?
Nothing.
They are both green on the outside and red underneath.
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Old 1st December 2017, 16:55     #149
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Once is an oversight, twice is carelessness, fifteen times is deliberate.

Farrar points out the obvious:

Quote:
(Y)ou need to understand candidates and MPs read the stories written about them. They do so religiously. Most have Google Alerts on their names. It is implausible in the extreme that she never read any of the stories on her that were inaccurate. In one case she didn;t even correct the interviewer.

Now some MPs take issues of accuracy very importantly when it comes to their background. As an example I know one MP who once had a profile of them appear in the Herald and there was a very minor mistake in it – the profile said the MP had a double degree but in fact they had one paper to go on their second degree. Not exactly a major thing but still inaccurate. The mistake was entirely the newspaper’s who had just assumed. But despite that, this MP e-mailed the reporter and pointed out the inaccuracy. That is what conscientious MPs do.
For Ghahraman to claim "oh I just didn't realise that there were published interviews in which the interviewer was under the impression I had actually been on the prosecution team" boggles the mind.

Just take her maiden speech to Parliament:

Quote:
“I saw that at the Rwanda Tribunal, at The Hague and when I prosecuted the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Holding politicians and armies to account for breaching their powers. Giving voice to women, and minorities who are most viciously targeted by abusers.”
Not a single literally-untrue statement. But anyone with half a brain and certainly anyone who has ever been paid to write words will look at that and see it as a statement designed to leave the audience with the impression that she had prosecuted the bad guys while very carefully avoiding declaratively stating that. It's semantically equivalent to "no, we didn't sleep together (lol we were awake the whole time)".

So you might say "well she's a politician, they're all pricks, she's just being dodgy like they all do", but fuck me I kinda hold the Greens to a slightly higher standard. I fucking voted for them this time.
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Old 1st December 2017, 17:25     #150
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Being a WAR CRIMES PROSECUTOR is such an integral part of her brand now, perhaps she believes it? Perhaps, unless it's pointed out to her, she just doesn't know she wasn't a prosecutor in Rwanda and the Hague? Brains are funny things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jnK...ature=youtu.be
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Old 1st December 2017, 17:37     #151
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
^ In agreement with Ab on all counts. Carefully crafted weasel words in that speech to Parliament.
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Old 1st December 2017, 17:38     #152
Lightspeed
 
So the specific accusations can't be demonstrated, but we'd be demented or have half a brain if we didn't accept this selfie taking, victim hating, genocide denying, doesn't stand for human rights perspective.

Yeah, real compelling.

What I see is a politician pointing out they've been in the thick of it, more so than our PM I reckon.

In the spirit of that article though, what's Judith Collins brand? lol
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Old 1st December 2017, 18:21     #153
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
I find it hard to believe that the Green party administrators wouldn't have sent Ghahraman an email saying "This is your bio we're going to put on the website, have a read and let us know what you think". That seems like it would be standard practice.
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Old 1st December 2017, 18:24     #154
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax
Carefully crafted weasel words in that speech to Parliament.
So pretty much like most speeches, delivered by most politicians, on most days...
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Old 1st December 2017, 19:42     #155
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The stupid thing is that "I'm a refugee from war and I got a law degree and defended war criminals" is a fucking powerful story. She should've used it.
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Old 1st December 2017, 22:49     #156
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
What I see is a politician pointing out they've been in the thick of it, more so than our PM I reckon.
Watching her explain herself on live tv really shows how trivial this all is.

Also from that article Farrar continued his attacks on her through questioning the truthfulness of her claiming she had experienced air raids and bombing. Which was easily cleared up by Ghahraman (surprise surprise).

So the reality is it's actually Farrar (& Quin with his genocide denier abuse) that are the dishonest ones.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:02     #157
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Yeah, it's like the Hilary "under fire in Bosnia" thing. Even adult memories are bullshit, let alone those of children. Brains are funny things.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 11:43     #158
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Thumbs up

... therefore every memory is false, and all claims are lies.

Are you sure you're not just a cynical old man?
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Old 2nd December 2017, 12:22     #159
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Yeah, it's like the Hilary "under fire in Bosnia" thing. Even adult memories are bullshit, let alone those of children. Brains are funny things.
Which is why this whole thing with Devoy bringing up something Winston said 20 years ago is a bit dumb. Memories change as we remember them, and false memories are easily constructed.

Memories are nice for friends and family, but more robust evidence is needed in many cases.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:38     #160
blynk
 
Really not following this story much, but has it been determined that she hasn't help the prosecution team on other cases?
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