National Thus Far

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by crocos

Driving a single-occupancy car from Wellington to Auckland vs a full jet (say Airbus 320) - car puts less pollutants into the atmosphere per person even if you allow for the car to drive around in Akls traffic jams then back to Wellington.

1,800 liters for an A320 to fly for 40 mins (at the manufacture's quoted 2,700 liters per hour fully loaded). With 168 seats for Air NZ that's 10.7 liters per person in fuel; less really since they carry cargo beyond passenger baggage and so the implied number of passengers is higher than 168 when full.

My car can do about 100km on that amount of fuel.

Where does the rest of the pollution come from to make your claim right?

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Nothing

In fact, if this is the kind of reason you rely on for not voting Green, in the face of the probable realities of climate change, it just comes off as either stupid, or really petty. And it wouldn't be unreasonable for Green party supporters to call tit-for-tat on this score either. Did you even see the National party campaign ads?

Oh please deranged loony, do you honestly not know the difference between politicking and wilful damage? The latter is a crime.

And can you please tell me how the Greens will somehow stop climate change on its own?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Blah blah climate change, betcha Nothing still drives a car.

When one is captured by a system that you either conform to or it breaks you down, what's the alternative? Besides, taking the bus isn't solving any problem. Not while Black Friday and cheap consumer goods made by dirty fossil fuels is a thing.

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

The greens can and will do nothing about climate change. Face it.

I faced it. It kind of went like "We're so fucked, thank goodness I don't have kids... oooh, new Star Wars trailer!"

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by cyc

Oh please deranged loony, do you honestly not know the difference between politicking and wilful damage? The latter is a crime.

Perhaps it is a crime, but the fact of it being a crime does not imply that it is morally bad behaviour. The law is not the arbiter of moral truth.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Blah blah climate change, betcha Nothing still drives a car.

Aside from the obviously bad ad hominem nature of what you're saying, and the fact that it seems to demonstrate an ignorance of what collective action problems actually are in the first place, FYI, I haven't had a car for more than a decade.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Perhaps it is a crime, but the fact of it being a crime does not imply that it is morally bad behaviour. The law is not the arbiter of moral truth.

Assertion does not make an argument. You're part of this society; parliamentarians get elected every 3 years to make laws and you get a vote. Unless a law is obvious repugnant, you should feel obliged to obey it.

Seriously, you're just a deranged leftie.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

The greens can and will do nothing about climate change. Face it.

Yeah, well, they certainly won't be able to do anything if National voters keep their neo-lib blinkers on and refuse to acknowledge the realities of our environmental situation. The greens might actually be able to do something about it if more people would vote for them, so your assertion isn't necessarily true.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by cyc

Assertion does not make an argument. You're part of this society; parliamentarians get elected every 3 years to make laws and you get a vote. Unless a law is obvious repugnant, you should feel obliged to obey it.

Seriously, you're just a deranged leftie.

I find that there are fucking plenty of repugnant laws in our society. Where do you want me to start? Just because you don't have any sense of what social justice looks like doesn't make me deranged.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

The greens can and will do nothing about climate change. Face it.

I see where you're coming from but I think that there's a strong moral argument to seriously cut emissions and also an argument around the many being in the right position to put pressure on the big guys.

I would like to see NZ at least do its fair share ie get it's per capita emissions right down. Even if we do take a somewhat 'bold' approach I reckon it will be a good investment into our Green/Hobbit image. Also the subsidies etc in the ETS mean it's not really working and I'd like to see a price on carbon instead.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I would like to see NZ at least do its fair share ie get it's per capita emissions right down.

Spot NZ

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ons_per_capita

[fixed_truth]

New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions are small on a global scale (0.15%), however in 2011, our emissions per capita were ranked 22nd highest in the world, and 6th in the OECD

From the MfE briefing for incoming ministers (pdf) released earlier this month

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Spot NZ

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ons_per_capita

Nice post with the 14 year old data there.

[Ab]

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Nice post with the 14 year old data there.

Are you for serial?

[Nothing]

What? The first image in the article uses data from 2000, 14 years ago. Therefore, it's true that Ab posted an article which uses data from 14 years ago. I'm just stating the facts in a way that suits the impression I want to give. That's what John Key would do isn't it? Why would you have a problem with that, given that you're all National supporters?

[chubby]

^^im comfortable with that

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nothing

What? The first image in the article uses data from 2000, 14 years ago. Therefore, it's true that Ab posted an article which uses data from 14 years ago. I'm just stating the facts in a way that suits the impression I want to give. That's what John Key would do isn't it? Why would you have a problem with that, given that you're all National supporters?

lolz

[pxpx]

TIL that politicians cherry pick facts in order to support their cause!

[Lightspeed]

It explains a lot if you've only just learnt that.

[Ab]

According to Gartner the operation of the Internet is worth about 300 million tonnes of CO2 per year, not to mention the carbon footprint of the manufacturing and supply chain of each individual computer (you think those sticks of RAM you just put in were carried here from Taiwan by fairies or something?). If you truly felt that we are facing an EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT you would be off the grid planting trees somewhere, or doing something else to counteract the fact that China activates 8 coal-fired powerstations a day.

Nah just kidding, making Internet posts that people who didn't vote Green are assholes is how you really save the planet, keep fighting the good fight bro.

[Lightspeed]

Yeah, nah. Engaging in useless moralising exercises isn't going to give our kids a future.

Empty moralising is how we got a PM who apparently can't remember if he communicated with someone the day before. Or is a liar.

[Ab]

Kids? People who care about the planet don't have kids. Not having kids is the single greatest and most influential thing any human can do to reduce carbon emissions.

When you see a Green voter with young children, falcon punch that hypocrite.

[Lightspeed]

What about people who care about human life on this planet?

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Yeah, nah. Engaging in useless moralising exercises isn't going to give our kids a future.

You should stop posting then

[Lightspeed]

Why, am I disrupting your circle-jerk?

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

According to Gartner the operation of the Internet is worth about 300 million tonnes of CO2 per year, not to mention the carbon footprint of the manufacturing and supply chain of each individual computer (you think those sticks of RAM you just put in were carried here from Taiwan by fairies or something?). If you truly felt that we are facing an EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT you would be off the grid planting trees somewhere, or doing something else to counteract the fact that China activates 8 coal-fired powerstations a day.

Nah just kidding, making Internet posts that people who didn't vote Green are assholes is how you really save the planet, keep fighting the good fight bro.

Yeah, noticing that there are huge problems with the energy supply for the internet, or any other similar examples, and then claiming that if I, as an individual, truly cared, I would be off the grid in some commune planting trees somewhere just shows that you don't really understand the nature of collective active problems. Get a better argument dude.

[pxpx]

"Get a better argument"

Now I truly have seen it all.

[CCS]

The solution to global warming is nuclear power. The Greens are against nuclear power. Therefore Greens are against solving global warming?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by pxpx

"Get a better argument"

Now I truly have seen it all.

Except for a better argument that is.

[fixed_truth]

TIL that you can't live in society if you want to change the way it functions!

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

you don't really understand the nature of collective active problems

Collective active problems? I presume that's pampered rich westerner for "someone else fix it".

[Lightspeed]

Yeah Margaret, that's what it is.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Collective active problems? I presume that's pampered rich westerner for "someone else fix it".

Yeah, have fun picking on the typos. Collective action problems. And you know it. But wait, do you seriously mean to tell me you actually don't know what collective action problems are?

[DrTiTus]

300 million tonnes sounds like a lot - except that's out of a total of 36 billion.

I'm going to have to do a lot more than post on the internet to kill your children at this rate.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

300 million tonnes sounds like a lot - except that's out of a total of 36 billion.

I'm going to have to do a lot more than post on the internet to kill your children at this rate.

QFT

[Ab]

NZ is a country of 4 million people in a world of population of 7+ billion and last time I checked it ranked 33rd on greenhouse gas emissions per capita. That equates to a rounding error on the climate calculator. NZ does not count as a contributing factor to world greenhouse gas emissions. Wail, gnash teeth, wear a hair shirt, whatever - insignificant.

Originally Posted by Nothing

Unless you're a climate change denier, and/or just plain don't give a shit about the environment, I can't see why you, or anyone for that matter, would prefer National over the Green party.

I think that statement says it all.

[DrTiTus]

Could that not be interpreted to mean there are at least 32 other countries who we need to engage with and encourage to reduce their emissions, citing our levels as an example?

It's all well and good to declare it someone else's fault, but we all suffer as a result.

[Lightspeed]

This is my thought too. Both with climate change and with spying. NZ could be a world leader in both these regards. But we're not. We're allowing ourselves to be conned in the hope of a few more sparkly shinies.

[pxpx]

But how do we ensure equal outcomes for ferals without said shineys? Do we magic them out of hemp?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Could that not be interpreted to mean there are at least 32 other countries who we need to engage with and encourage to reduce their emissions, citing our levels as an example?

It's all well and good to declare it someone else's fault, but we all suffer as a result.

Yeah, and when the National govt does something to increase the ways in which NZ engages with, say, the USA - number 8 on the per-capita list - that's always met with such universal approval.