NZGames.com Forums
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   NZGames.com Forums > General > Open Discussion > Politics
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 1st July 2010, 10:31     #1881
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
You're going to take a hit regardless
Yes, though this is temporary and the hit will be proportionate to the businesses polluting. As long as the cost of green technology is at most the same as that cost of old technology + the new carbon cost, then green technology will be a smart business investment. A portion of the money from the ETS goes into green technology development, so the cost of this new technology will be constantly decreasing.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 10:37     #1882
David
 
It won't be temporary though.

Once a price level has been set, it's very hard for price levels to drop away. Prices are very slippery going upwards but very sticky coming back down, the reason for this is that the market adjusts to new pricing by raising wages and other things to meet them - wages will not come back down, things like the minimum wage being such a huge percentage of our GDP for instance makes NZ a laughing stock economically.

I'm talking about essentials here, food, clothing, energy. Non-essentials like technology tend to come down in price because demand drops and as you say, the cost of production drops so they can afford lower pricing structures - you'll see drops there, but those are what, 25-33% of total spend?
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 10:55     #1883
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It won't be temporary though.

Once a price level has been set, it's very hard for price levels to drop away. Prices are very slippery going upwards but very sticky coming back down, the reason for this is that the market adjusts to new pricing by raising wages and other things to meet them - wages will not come back down
If the gain from production costing less results in people having more purchasing power then is that different from the results of a price drop or not adjusting for inflation?

And there's also a real economic advantage in being able to market a 'green' product over a 'dirty' product.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

Last edited by fixed_truth : 1st July 2010 at 10:57.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 11:27     #1884
David
 
The reality is the only advantage of a green product is human conscience and stupidity, outside of that at the moment, the cost of green products on the environment are as big, if not bigger than their traditional counterparts (take the production costs and carbon footprint of a Prius in it's entire lifetime vs most V8 cars)
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 11:39     #1885
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
The reality is the only advantage of a green product is human conscience and stupidity, outside of that at the moment, the cost of green products on the environment are as big, if not bigger than their traditional counterparts
Ahaha snap, you were doing so good to keep up too.

How are products that absorb the same amount of carbon dioxide as they produce, or absorb more than their 'traditional counterparts' - worse for the environment?
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 11:53     #1886
David
 
Something like the Prius, which has higher costs on the environment to produce, sufficiently higher than the entire lifetime (10-15 years) of the car mean it is worse for the environment isn't hard to work out.

My personal thoughts are that if people want to be environmentally sound, they need to take a hit to the lifestyle via paying more for items or having less access to things such as petrol.

Until that occurs, anyone complaining about the environment makes me laugh.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 11:54     #1887
David
 
Back to the topic at large - even Labour freaks must admit that the way National has governed is WAY better than what would have happened if Phil Goff lead his bunch of fuckwits through a term, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 12:10     #1888
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Correct, but I doubt Auntie would have stepped down if she had won again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 12:11     #1889
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Something like the Prius, which has higher costs on the environment to produce, sufficiently higher than the entire lifetime (10-15 years) of the car mean it is worse for the environment isn't hard to work out.
Isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
My personal thoughts are that if people want to be environmentally sound, they need to take a hit to the lifestyle via paying more for items or having less access to things such as petrol.
That would be good

Until that occurs, anyone complaining about the environment makes me laugh.
Good luck waiting for that to occur. People (and industry) generally wouldn't choose to take a hit in the pocket for the environment and that's why the Government steps in.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 12:12     #1890
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Back to the topic at large - even Labour freaks must admit that the way National has governed is WAY better than what would have happened if Phil Goff lead his bunch of fuckwits through a term, right?
Dunno, you'll have to ask a Labour freak.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 16:44     #1891
adonis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
The reality is the only advantage of a green product is human conscience and stupidity, outside of that at the moment, the cost of green products on the environment are as big, if not bigger than their traditional counterparts (take the production costs and carbon footprint of a Prius in it's entire lifetime vs most V8 cars)
Even if there is a degree of truth to this, it only outlines the need for an ETS. By making companies pay for the real costs of their product (IE the environmental impact) the only reason for "Green" technology to exist is for marketing reasons. If you can market something as green that's enough, but with a properly working ETS it isn't enough, it actually has to do what they're advertising.

As to your other question, I'm not a Labour freak but I very much doubt that they'd be doing a worse job than the current government.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 16:46     #1892
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juju
Correct, but I doubt Auntie would have stepped down if she had won again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 16:53     #1893
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adonis
Even if there is a degree of truth to this, it only outlines the need for an ETS. By making companies pay for the real costs of their product (IE the environmental impact) the only reason for "Green" technology to exist is for marketing reasons. If you can market something as green that's enough, but with a properly working ETS it isn't enough, it actually has to do what they're advertising.
The problem is that is NOT what the ETS does. ETS just means the company charges more for it's end product or goes out of business. If it's a necessary or in-demand product it'll be the former.

It doesn't mean there's anyone there actually cleaning up the pollution.
__________________
Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N

وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 17:09     #1894
adonis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
The problem is that is NOT what the ETS does. ETS just means the company charges more for it's end product or goes out of business. If it's a necessary or in-demand product it'll be the former.

It doesn't mean there's anyone there actually cleaning up the pollution.
You may benefit from taking a course in economics 101. If something costs more there's less incentive to buy it, and less incentive for the business to produce it. Businesses will try and cut costs so they don't have to pass it on to customers. With a properly working ETS that means coming with with green alternatives. Companies that can't or won't adapt will go out of business, but that's exactly what should happen in a free market. I guess you could be right if there are necessary products where no green alternative can ever exist, but if that's the case we're screwed anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely that will be the case long term.

That being said, the ETS we have has been watered down too much and what that amounts to is subsidising polluters, as we have been doing since the oil age began. A properly working ETS should impose the real cost of the products being sold so the market can sort out the details.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 19:33     #1895
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Why are south islanders getting stung for ETS charges on their power bills?

The whole electricity market is fucked and shouldn't have to comply with ETS at this point because there's no true competition, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get away with doing the above because some other provider would just (correctly) not sting them for it and they'd get the business...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 02:03     #1896
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
In before Simon.

Quote:
National has increased its lead over Labour in the latest Roy Morgan Research poll.

The survey released tonight shows National on 53 per cent support, up 2.5 points, and Labour down four points to 29 per cent.
lolly
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 02:20     #1897
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Ahahahaha, under the 30% mark. That's woeful.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 10:39     #1898
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
The latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows support for John Key’s National-led Government has strengthened to 58.5% (up 3%)Support for Opposition Parties has fallen to 41.5% (down 3%)
Good chance to push out Goff but they'll probably just blame the credit card stuff up.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 10:53     #1899
ZoSo
 
Winston comeback to prop up the left? heh
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 12:53     #1900
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Loved this little observation from Danyl at Dim-Post:
Quote:
Vacuum
by danylmc

It’s a recess week, the PM is overseas and there is basically no political news. If you were an embattled opposition party with huge problems getting positive media coverage what would YOU have done with this now-missed opportunity?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 13:16     #1901
Lightspeed
 
It goes to show how much Labour was really just Helen's party. The bloody woman could have at least raised up a few protégé while she was in power, so there would be some people to take the reins once she left.

Instead she leaves and the whole party turns into a bunch of whimpering morons.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2010, 13:23     #1902
ZoSo
 
Said as much on page 3.
iirc she did give Cunliffe the nod though? or least was prepping him somewhat. Could be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2010, 12:30     #1903
A Corpse
talkative lurker
 
This just in, Tony Ryall admits that the government underpays doctors.

Well...

Article about doctors working as locums in Australia.

Quote:
Mr Ryall told the Herald that salaries were not the only driver of doctors' behaviour.

"If that was the case there wouldn't be any in New Zealand."
__________________
Broke my addiction! Bye bye Eve, hello Minecraft. Wait... >_<
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2010, 16:43     #1904
MrTTTT
 
National also want to restrict union access to workplaces. The current law means employers can't refuse unions access to their workers. Any law change will simply pander to the cunt employers who don't want unions around their workers.

It's interesting too that even with the current law the cops take the side of the employers. I've heard of many situations where unions have exercised their rights to have access to the workplace, and employers have called the cops for trespassing. The cops have then come and forcibly removed the union organizers, despite them being well within the law. It seems 'justice' likes to side with the employers regardless of what the law actually is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2010, 17:30     #1905
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I think it's more that the police like those solutions that most instantly get people determined to have a confrontation away from each other. This might be regardless of the fact that the law may literally say that they have a right to be there and have their confrontation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2010, 19:30     #1906
MrTTTT
 
There'd be no confrontation if the employers abide by the laws and just let the unions in . particularly disappointing by the police because the unions have (historically speaking) done so much for this country, including for all the (unionized) police force.

i hear some horror shit that the employers do these days (because my job entails dealing with that shit mainly). what i will say about this 90 day trial shit is it really is a shit thing to the youth.

you come in your first job ever, 15 years old. after 30 days you get told not to come in anymore, no reason, no nothing. you stay home in tears and have a negative attitude about work for a long long time. in the last month i've had three separate occasions where people younger than 18 were told they no longer had a job and weren't even given a reason why. that is a complete farce.

what i am not saying, however, is that employers should have NO mechanisms to get rid of shit workers. but when they are getting rid of workers who seemingly think they are doing a good job, that's not good. at least inform the workers they need to get their shit together before willy nilly firing them!
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 09:54     #1907
fixed_truth
 
* A zero drink drive limit for recidivist drink drivers.
* A zero drink drive limit for drivers under 20 years of age.
* Much tougher penalties for serious offences causing death and drink driving causing death.
* The introduction of alcohol interlocks for repeat drink-drivers.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10661342

Liking these, apart from the under 20 years limit. If someone has a full licence and can legally purchase alcohol then I think that they should be treated the same as everyone else who has met those conditions.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 11:10     #1908
BoyWonder
 
Yeah I was thinking that might backfire...

Yay I'm 20 and can drink and drive now! I'll figure out how much is over the limit when I get there!
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 14:32     #1909
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10661558
Quote:
A decision on lowering the drink-drive limit should go to a select committee, Labour leader Phil Goff says.

Mr Goff said failing to reduce the limit was a remarkable u-turn by the Government.

Mr Goff was a member of the Labour Cabinet that decided not to reduce the limit.

Prime Minister John Key said the Labour Party had nine years in government and did not do anything about lowering the drinking age.

"It's a bit rich for a government...that didn't even bother commissioning the report, to be arguing we should be doing something."
How long until Labour realises that Goff is a liability?
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 15:05     #1910
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10661558


How long until Labour realises that Goff is a liability?
Why do I get the feeling that anytime anymore mentions the fact that Labour was in power for 9 years to Phil Goff, he just crawls into a fetal position, covers his ears and sings "la la la la la la la i cant heaaaaaaar youuuuuu"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 15:42     #1911
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Not just those nine years, he was in Cabinet in the Labour government before THAT one. He was in cabinet with Roger Douglas and David Lange and Geoffrey Palmer. He was part of the Labour Cabinet that approved the sale of Telecom and NZ Rail, etc etc!
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 15:50     #1912
fixed_truth
 
Yeah when you've been around as long as Goff it's hard not to contradict something you said in the 80's or the 90's or the 00's. Context means nothing to joe average.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2010, 18:45     #1913
chubby
 
...and a real shame that its the best excuse that can be thought of for NACT to do nothing.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2010, 10:48     #1914
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubby
...and a real shame that its the best excuse that can be thought of for NACT doing a whole bunch of things that I chose to ignore, but don't do the one thing that my boyfriend Mr Goff had suggested but hadn't done himself in 1 million years of being in politics.

fuxd!
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2010, 10:55     #1915
MrTTTT
 
Goff is such a scrotum
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2010, 13:18     #1916
David
 
Thank god for Goff tbh.

It means National can make some unpopular but absolutely neccessary decisions and still make it in within the next election to see the benefits of the results before Labour fuck them up.

Nine years consistency with Labour and what did we get out of it? Nothing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2010, 16:08     #1917
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Oh Chris Carter, you loon!
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2010, 19:00     #1918
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Why you posting that in this thread?
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2010, 19:24     #1919
Vrtigo
Marginal Poster
 
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2010, 19:31     #1920
MrTTTT
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Thank god for Goff tbh.

It means National can make some unpopular but absolutely neccessary decisions and still make it in within the next election to see the benefits of the results before Labour fuck them up.

Nine years consistency with Labour and what did we get out of it? Nothing.
You are such a scrotum.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



© Copyright NZGames.com 1996-2023
Site paid for by members (love you guys)