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Old 31st May 2010, 16:35     #1
MadMax
Stuff
 
What grinds your gonads? Boobies, babies, and midwives oh my

everyone telling my wife and i how we should be raising our child already. just because you bottle fed your children doesn't mean we should do the same for ours when he's breast feeding perfectly ok
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Old 31st May 2010, 19:43     #2
fidgit
Always itchy
 
I thought everyone knew breast-was-best? Psh bottles. That's how you get melamine poisoning...
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:39     #3
Bandalador
 
Haha the whole breast vs bottle thing is actually fucking gear grinding in NZ, now that you mention it.
On the one hand you've got the fucking hippie midwives pounding you in the face with their dogmatic doctrine regurgitation, making anyone who bottle/formula feeds their children feel like scum for doing so. On the other side you've got physicians, obs, paeds, GP's saying "yeah ummm this isn't a 3rd world country where the water isn't safe enough to use in formula"... "As long as you breast feed for the first few days/a week or two tops to get the infant the antibodies that they need then you're fine to move to formula."
Of course if breast feeding is going fine then great, whatever works for you, but for any mother who is 'suffering' through breast feeding, it's not worth it. The other great thing about formula feeding is that the father can feed the kid while the mum sleeps making the whole family better off.

After dealing with with many midwives through the birth of our two kids I can safely say that 99% of everything they say is total and utter bullshit (not just to do with formula feeding/breast is best crap but everything, sleeping patterns, colic, reflux, etc etc) and the way they beat down mothers who chose to formula feed is disgusting. I actually had to tell one to 'fuck off' when they would not drop it and stop harassing and guilting my wife on the subject.
Midwives gmg.
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:43     #4
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
MadMax - not "well-meaning much older relatives", perchance? They are teh debbil when it comes to baby advice.
My personal favourites:
"Oh, the baby is just hungry, mix in a bit of yoghurt with her milk". (at 3 days old)
"When she starts teething, use a mixture of whiskey, warm water & sugar on her gums"
"It doesn't matter if she cries, she has to learn you're not always going to come running!" (when daughter was 2 days old).
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:51     #5
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
teh debbil: "What he/she needs is a bit of $HOMEOPATHIC_REMEDY"

FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:55     #6
Redneck
 
Sad

My bro and his partner were given several books on raising a baby, one of which seemed quite useful - until the section on vaccination. "If you're concerned about the safety of vaccinating your child, contact your local homeopathy professional."
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:58     #7
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Ab - No shit?! I did have one well-meaning relative suggest that I use some homeopathic teething tablets and I nearly slaughtered them.
Cheers but I'll stick to the remedies that actually work. Grrr
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:05     #8
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
When people suggest stuff I don't believe in I just tell them I'm doing stuff they don't believe in.

"You should see a homeopath."
"Oh, no, I'm seeing a faith healer for it. I have it well under control."
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:15     #9
chiquelet
Mrs Colin Farrell
 
Breast feeding is the fucking devil. For something that your body is born to do, well, the body just can't handle it for most women. After having to be hospitalised when my kid was 4 weeks old, and again at 6 weeks old (different boob each time) because the mastitis had developed into a full-blown abscess...yeah, fuck breast feeding. Having my tits sliced open and a fucking drain inserted into each, and the 5 months recovery (I became very friendly with all the district nurses)...yeah, bottle feeding 4 lyfe.

Seriously, nothing makes me rage more than breast feeding. It's fantastic if it works for you, but if it's not then don't be afraid to say "fuck it" and go for the bottle.

And if I hear "so when are you having number two" one more time then I'm going to cut a bitch. I fucking hate women and their sick obsession with breeding.

Man I'm angry tonight.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:19     #10
pxpx
 
^ this is what terror looks like
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:30     #11
MadMax
Stuff
 
i should say that there are a few unique scenarios where a mum shouldn't breast feed and needs to use a bottle + formula (say, due to mums medication). it's also handy to freeze milk for later when mum is tired and needs a rest where dad can then feed baby from mums defrosted milk. but certainly not while baby and mum are just starting to get the hang of breast feeding.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:37     #12
chiquelet
Mrs Colin Farrell
 
"when mum needs a rest" - that's when mastitis develops, mk? Mum skips a feed, the milk builds up, and an infection occurs. Seriously, this whole "freezing milk" business is a marketing scheme by the breast pump manufacturers. It sounds like a great idea when you're pregnant but the reality of sterilising and pumping? *snort* it's a joke.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:38     #13
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalador
f course if breast feeding is going fine then great, whatever works for you, but for any mother who is 'suffering' through breast feeding, it's not worth it. The other great thing about formula feeding is that the father can feed the kid while the mum sleeps making the whole family better off.
yep, see the midwife voice on my shoulder is reading yours and chiqs post and wondering what that suffering was about - was the breast properly in the babys mouth so the work isnt done on the nipple? was the feeding done so as to make the breast self-regulate? (dont answer that ... just saying )
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:41     #14
MadMax
Stuff
 
Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiquelet
"when mum needs a rest" - that's when mastitis develops, mk? Mum skips a feed, the milk builds up, and an infection occurs. Seriously, this whole "freezing milk" business is a marketing scheme by the breast pump manufacturers. It sounds like a great idea when you're pregnant but the reality of sterilising and pumping? *snort* it's a joke.
thats EXACTLY what im on about. but you try explaining it to people that are experts because 'its what everyone does'
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:46     #15
chiquelet
Mrs Colin Farrell
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosWulf
I did have one well-meaning relative suggest that I use some homeopathic teething tablets
Nobody recommended amber beads, did they?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiQ
When people suggest stuff I don't believe in I just tell them I'm doing stuff they don't believe in.

"You should see a homeopath."
"Oh, no, I'm seeing a faith healer for it. I have it well under control."
I'm totally stealing that, except I'll replace faith healer with witch doctor No doubt the people who consult with homeopaths would also consult with witch doctors, given the chance...hrm.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:49     #16
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
...reading yours and chiqs post...
Just for the record, chiquelet and I are entirely separate people.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:52     #17
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
wait... wat?
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:58     #18
MadMax
Stuff
 
im on my netbook in bed so truncated it for size to save typing :/
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Old 31st May 2010, 22:43     #19
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
it's also handy to freeze milk for later when mum is tired and needs a rest where dad can then feed baby from mums defrosted milk
I endorse this product and/or service. So long as mum doesn't mind the feeling of being milked like a cow, a breast pump can be a life saver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiquelet
Seriously, this whole "freezing milk" business is a marketing scheme by the breast pump manufacturers. It sounds like a great idea when you're pregnant but the reality of sterilising and pumping? *snort* it's a joke.
Nah bollocks. It's awesome. Eases the breast pressure when baby's not around or awake to feed, and having a freezer full of breast milk is great for when baby's around and awake but mum isn't.
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Old 31st May 2010, 22:47     #20
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosWulf
Ab - No shit?!
Yes. Mother-in-law. Gah!
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Old 31st May 2010, 22:50     #21
Lightspeed
 
Ahahah! I have a friend who lives in homoeopathy hell. His mother-in-law is all up into it, and he's not really the kind to mess with his mother-in-law I don't think.

The worst of it I think is the kids wearing amber necklaces, actual health concerns are dealt with by a real doctor.
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Old 1st June 2010, 00:27     #22
Bandalador
 
Skipping a feed causes mastitis? Haha pull the other one, midwife tell you that gem? I can hear her now... "It's your fault, you shouldn't have skipped a feed, feed on demand, you've given him/her nipple confusion by giving him/her a bottle/dummy/anything non natural/hippie"
After having mastitis twice with our first, and listening to midwives who would just spout "PERSIST WITH BREAST FEEDING NO MATTER THE COST! IT'S THE ONLY FIX FOR MASTITIS, YOU MUST CLEAR THE BREAST NATURALLY!!!!" we went to a specialist breast surgeon who said "Nah, fuck no. Just stop. Stop pumping, stop expressing, stop everything. It will all just clear up." Asked our LMC (specialist obs) who agreed, just stop, if you have any worries I will chuck you on antibiotics at the first sign of infection.
Sure enough.... All cleared up, milk supply dried up, baby on formula = much happier family.

MadMax: All babies are not created equal, also all nipples are not created equal. Some babies have a smaller mouth, shorter tongue.. some mums, larger nipples, smaller breasts... any number of combined things to make latching/feeding harder to get perfect resulting in damaged bruised, cracked, bleeding, then infected nipples/breasts and thus extreme 'suffering'. The other thing is, some babies just like sucking or chewing. Our youngest for example would NEVER open his mouth wide enough and would ALWAYS readjust, no matter how good the initial latch. So he would pull back, bite on the end of the nipple, chew for a bit, get frustrated, chew some more and generally fuck the whole thing up. He even did this while on the bottle, I'd watch him nibble the end of the teat for a good while before letting it into his mouth.

So yeah that midwife on your shoulder who loves to paint everything with the same bullshit brush can fuck off.
Honestly, I don't think there is any branch of the current standard health care system which is even close to being as useless and counterproductive as midwives.
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Old 1st June 2010, 00:44     #23
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
A counterpoint:

When my daughter Vianne was born, she didn't put on weight very fast. In fact when she left the hospital, she weighed less than she did at birth, and she put on almost nothing in the first week - and that's with regular breastfeeding. Got to the point where we were getting quite worried.

We had a followup with a midwife who agreed that it was a matter of concern, and she basically said "Your baby may be drinking lots of breast milk, but I don't think she's drinking the RIGHT breast milk."

(cue "wtf are you on about hippy" raised eyebrow from me)

Midwife Gillian's advice was that the first 50ml or so of breast milk from a full breast is basically just sweet-tasting watery non-nutritious liquid. It's sweet, baby gets a blood-sugar kick from it, gets a slightly full tummy and the urge to feed subsides. But it's basically junk food, and if Vianne was feeding frequently but not for long, she wouldn't be getting any nutrition from the milk.

Gillian's advice was for Princess to express 50-100ml of the watery "foremilk" before breastfeeding so that Vianne would be drinking the rich, fatty breastmilk that comes afterwards and that actually contains kilojoules - the "hindmilk".

This sounded like witchcraft to me and I thought about calling for torches, but I figured what the hell, give it a crack. And it worked. Immediately. We - and by we I of course mean "Princess" - expressed milk immediately before feeding time, and Vianne started piling on weight like a baby is supposed to.

So yeah. I learned something I previously didn't know about breasts. And a midwife's advice kicked ass.
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Old 1st June 2010, 00:45     #24
dylan
Huh?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosWulf
Ab - No shit?! I did have one well-meaning relative suggest that I use some homeopathic teething tablets and I nearly slaughtered them.
Cheers but I'll stick to the remedies that actually work. Grrr
The tablets just obviously needed to be diluted a few more* times

*million
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Old 1st June 2010, 00:57     #25
Bandalador
 
Ab, we also learned that exact same point after being in the same situation (BTW as far as I know, all babies drop slightly from their birth weight in the first few days) but we had to learn what you learned from reading and talking to actual doctors. Not sure midwives in NZ are up to the same standard as those in Aus?
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Old 1st June 2010, 01:07     #26
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
All this talk of tits and no actual pictures is grinding my gears.
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Old 1st June 2010, 01:14     #27
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalador
Ab, we also learned that exact same point after being in the same situation (BTW as far as I know, all babies drop slightly from their birth weight in the first few days) but we had to learn what you learned from reading and talking to actual doctors. Not sure midwives in NZ are up to the same standard as those in Aus?
I'm not sure. Gillian is Irish, I'd put her in her late forties, and her bearing and manner all said "experienced nurse". When I refer to her as a midwife it's a reference to the function she was performing rather than to anything about her qualifications.

I will say this - both my kids were born in a private hospital, attended by an obstetrician with any of a group of maybe four midwives on hand depending on who was on duty during any particular hour of labour. I could not be happier with the professionalism and expertise of them all. The women I describe as "midwives" all came across as experienced medical professionals, not hippy earth mothers dangling crystals over the bed.
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Old 1st June 2010, 06:02     #28
Bandalador
 
Same here, private all the way but if that's your experience then don't ever have kids in NZ. If there's a midwife here that could be described as a "medical professional" I haven't met or heard of them.
For eg, last kid was born at 23:40 so only one midwife on deck (Obstetrician, theatre nurses, anesthetics reg. etc - as it was an emergency cesarean) And this midwife, who was supposed to be senior, needed my help to measure and weigh the baby (she couldn't work the scales in that theatre) which she ended up getting completely wrong.
Hate them.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:47     #29
chiquelet
Mrs Colin Farrell
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
All this talk of tits and no actual pictures is grinding my gears.
If you couldn't see a bit of nip I'd throw up a pic of my post-surgery tit, complete with drain poking out. Nothing would kill a morning boner faster.

Imo a midwive is pretty much useless when it comes to breast feeding. Lactation consultants, however, are not. What I learnt from the consultant was that if mastitis isn't attended to in the first 24 hours then the infection will go nuts - cue my abscesses. Of course I didn't find this out until I was in hospital. My midwife (who was a different midwife from my birthing one btw) was the whole "clear the breast naturally, apply hot flannels, cue cabbage leaves etc" when I was there in agony with a tit as hard as a rock.

Also, yeah skipping a feed can bring on mastitis?! Did your obstetrician tell you it couldn't *snort* The baby starts to feed at longer intervals, starts sleeping through the night, and you wake up in the morning with tits the size of watermelons, bursting at the seams. My infection came on after a night of sleep.

For the tl;dr - breast feeding bad, bottle feeding good, tits that haven't been damaged by the ravages of an infant are good.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:56     #30
StN
I have detailed files
 
Lactation consultant.

Grrr - yet another vocation the bloody guidance counsellor declined to mention.
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:05     #31
Bandalador
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiquelet
Also, yeah skipping a feed can bring on mastitis?! Did your obstetrician tell you it couldn't *snort* The baby starts to feed at longer intervals, starts sleeping through the night, and you wake up in the morning with tits the size of watermelons, bursting at the seams. My infection came on after a night of sleep.
Then the infection was there before you went to sleep.
With our second, my wife just cold turkey stopped feeding and/or expressing at 4 weeks when her supply was high. Breasts went huge, hard as rocks, super painful for a few days then .... just went down. No mastitis.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:27     #32
eff tee
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalador
Same here, private all the way but if that's your experience then don't ever have kids in NZ. If there's a midwife here that could be described as a "medical professional" I haven't met or heard of them.
My midwife rocked. As did the 8 midwives that the other girls in my antenatal class used. Nice of you to tar them all with the same brush

People need to accept that every mother and baby are different. Some women are fucking sooks, some are hard bastards. All have differing thresholds of pain and tolerance. All mothers though, should be able to make their own decisions, and sadly I know this doesn't happen. There's always someone trying to stick their oar in somewhere, be it midwife, family or husband. There's always something to feel guilty about when you have a baby! Breastfeeding is merely the tit of the iceberg

Reading that a burglar strangled a pet dog GMG
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:34     #33
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Yes. Mother-in-law. Gah!
Sounds about right. My mother-in-law is a very dear well meaning woman who is unfortunately cursed with terminal stupidity. Sadly she is also of the age where she now feels absolutely free to loudly declare her hopelessly outdated points of view as if they were a universal cure-all. Bad combination.

chiquelet - Amber beads have not been mentioned. Probably because the homeopathic snake oil conversation went so terribly wrong...
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:34     #34
Waldo
Pornstar
 
Have no complain of midwifery in NZ, I think we used dominoes midwifes or something, cant remember. I'm glad our one wasn't there on the night, had a staunch hippy that told my wife to harden up. In retrospect the delivery was the easiest part of having a baby, in comparison to the first 12 months.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:48     #35
StN
I have detailed files
 
I have no love for NZ Midwives - they outright refused to give any advice on alternatives to breast feeding at the anté natal classes. And then bingo - kid wouldn't take the boob, and the old girl was left high and dry to work it out on her own. Nurses at the private hospital were bloody awesome. As was the bit where they brought me in a cooked lunch to eat in front of the wife when she was fasting prior to the Ceasar.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:00     #36
Bandalador
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eff tee
My midwife rocked. As did the 8 midwives that the other girls in my antenatal class used. Nice of you to tar them all with the same brush

People need to accept that every mother and baby are different. Some women are fucking sooks, some are hard bastards. All have differing thresholds of pain and tolerance. All mothers though, should be able to make their own decisions, and sadly I know this doesn't happen. There's always someone trying to stick their oar in somewhere, be it midwife, family or husband. There's always something to feel guilty about when you have a baby! Breastfeeding is merely the tit of the iceberg
Haha the 'pain tolerance' card.. I've heard your exact words come out of a midwife's mouth.
Your midwife may have rocked as you say but I doubt anyone would mistake her for a "medical professional"
We dealt with so many with both kids, initially in antenatal class, in hospital for 2 unexpected and extended stays and while out at home. All were slack, always reaching for the easy (and totally hippy/non clinical) explanation/diagnosis/treatment. One was even negligent to a utterly criminal extent resulting in severe consequences for us.

A sad thing about the health profession is that it's so unbelievably steeped in tradition, and that is the only thing keeping the mockery that is midwifery in business.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:19     #37
Waldo
Pornstar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalador
A sad thing about the health profession is that it's so unbelievably steeped in tradition, and that is the only thing keeping the mockery that ...
you can say that about every medical field.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:24     #38
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
everyone telling my wife and i how we should be raising our child already. just because you bottle fed your children doesn't mean we should do the same for ours when he's breast feeding perfectly ok
What, you feed your infant anything milk-related? Bah! Start them with such luxuries and they'll only get spoilt!
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Last edited by crocos : 1st June 2010 at 10:27.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:38     #39
Bandalador
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldo
you can say that about every medical field.
So tradition is the only thing keeping the institution of General Practitioners in business? Tradition is the only thing keeping the Anesthetics specialty in business? I don't follow your logic.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:50     #40
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Midwives are interesting creatures. I know of some people who claim to have had good ones, but everyone I've actually met has hated theirs.
My first was an apathetic cow who took 20 minutes before handing my baby over to me, and couldn't care less about getting the feeding right.
My second .. well. She might have been a great midwife, I'll give her that. However she knew damn well that she was going to be on a course on the week I was due and didn't mention this until 2 weeks before I was due, giving me the number of her second (who I'd never met). When I did actually have sprog on the date I was supposed to, the second midwife was resentful and blamed me for "not holding on" til the original midwife was back.
Original midwife then flipped into "couldn't care less" mode when she returned. Just lovely.

While I'm pleased that eff tee had a great midwife, I think she may well be the exception to the rule - all the ones I've encountered have been careless and blase about the whole thing, not staying up with important developments, not giving a crap about the mothers health or comfort, and with a spectacular attitude that we should then be grateful that they have deigned to birth our babies and owe it to them to have fantastically quick easy births. Pretty damn irritating at a time when you really really don't need the irritation.
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