Matrix Reloaded * WITH SPOILERS* (you are warned)

[rubberchicken]

More theology and mythology with bit of philosophy thrown in.

[Axident]

Originally posted by BadNova
In Final Flight of the Osiris it's said that Zion is 4 kilometres down from the surface.

Interesting. The deepest mines today are diamond mines at about 4km and they're aiming for 5km. The rock at those depths can reach temperatures of 700 degrees celcius. And that's still nowhere near the Earth's core.

And in Zion they were saying they needed machinery for heating Also, that cave must've have had some damn good air conditioning.

[armourking]

Maybe Revolutions will end like a certain William Gibson novel, the one given a nice tip-o'-the-hat to in the music title for the highway scene...

[Uncle Gus]

Originally posted by Simon
In that scene I actually thought she was attempting to introduce some drug into Neo, as the Mero-... Meri-... French fag did to the girl in the restaurant with the chocolate cake. They seemed to focus on her reapplying her lipstick and then asking Neo to kiss her...

Yeah, me too. When they kissed, I turned to my friend and I was like "it's a bug or something, the lipstick, some kind of trace or poison or something. It's gotta be!" But no. It was just good old Hollywood cheese.

[Perfk]

Originally posted by Simon
Wow, what chiquelet loved about the movie was the French woman. Didn't see THAT coming.

She was a French woman with a translucent rubber dress & too much pubic hair. Although her character did have some classy moments, so it's almost acceptable this time

[Uncle Gus]

What happened to Tank anyway? They talk about him as though he's dead, but the last you see of him in the first one, he's a bit burnt, but, in his own words "I'll be a'ight." And then he's not there in the second one, absent, just like the explanation of his absence. Is he dead? Or what? What's the go?

[Fred]

Okay rumination time - the central point of the second film is, as Neo puts it, the problem of choice. But why is that a problem? And what does it point to for the third film?

The matrix is fundamentally a consensual fantasy, all participants share in the fantasy and by extension have the choice to refuse to participate. Because they have been plugged into it since a pre-conscious stage of development and because it is a reasonable facsimile of reality then most chose to participate despite the nagging little voice in the back of their mind telling them that something is wrong. It's been shown time and again the simulation isn't perfect - look closely and the cracks appear with errors being passed off as ghosts, undead, haunted houses, aliens and a whole panolpy of paranormal explanations.

People are aware of these cracks but make the choice, subconciously, to stick with the matrix probably out of a fear of the unknown and the familiarity the matrix has for them. But a few do not choose that way. Herein lies the problem - once someone rejects the fantasy world what do you do with them? Culling is one solution but if too many are culled then the gaps their removal creates becomes a problem in and of itself. It destroys the illusion of normalcy and provides a new stimulus to reject the matrix, possibly becoming a cascade reaction if the numbers culled become too high. There is an oblique reference to this sort of mass rejection occuring with Smith's history lession on the earlier incarnations of the matrix. His phrase was 'entire crops were lost' as I recall implying a quite disastrous failure.

Clearly culling isn't a solution in and of itself. Also clearly the mind of the people plugged into the matrix must be kept intact. I hope for the next film one of the reveals will be that it never has been about power - although they do collect it to offset the energy expenditure required to run the matrix. The physics never made sense and instead we should find that a conscious mind is the key component of the matrix. Anyway the machines had to react and find a solution that didn't involve culling constantly on a grand scale.

They also have the problem that because the matrix is a consensual fantasy then when you reject it there exists the potential to stop playing by the shared rules. The stronger the rejection the less inclined you are to play by the rules and potentially you could begin exerting your own will on the matrix and remoulding it to your likes. This would seem to be the source of Neo's powers and indeed to a lesser extent the abilities of the Zion agents working in the matrix. Again people disrupting the matrix on a grand scale can't be permitted so you can not afford to leave these people plugged in either. Worse yet it can be a learned response where once one person has demonstrated the flexibility of the matrix's rules then others can similarly learn to manipulate it. The problem must be contained to a level where plausible deniability can be maintained and the vast majority of matrix dwellers can happily cling to their fantasy world.

What to do?

Well we know the answer - let them go free. But do it in such a way that these free individuals not only will do you work for you - they will seek out like minded individuals to be freed but through the provision of sentinals in real life and agents in the matrix make large scale disruption of the matrix unlikely to extremely difficult. On top of that we have the elaborate and intricate business of the prophecy. Not only does this serve as an encouragement to trawl the matrix looking for the right kind of minds you wish to remove but because you need people to search the matrix looking for these minds then you sidestep the issue of direct culling. These people return to the matrix often enough to keep the other inhabitants happy that nothing too odd is going on - these people are still living, just in another area of their fantasy world.

This doesn't cure the problem. It merely manages it, something the Architect acknowledges with frustration as he admits a full solution eludes him. But it has consequences of it's own. You still have people roaming the matrix who are, through force of will or focus, able to do things that directly violate the shared rules. They aren't seen often and the rumour is that they are always chased by men in dark glasses and grey suits but that rumour creeps, builds and grows. It encourages other minds to be that touch more observant, experimental and thus inclined to learn how to break the rules of the matrix.

In essence it creates the ripe seeds for the creation of individuals whose force of will is such and whose rejection of the matrix is such that they are able to shape it on a scale that cannot be tolerated. Worse yet their skills allow them to accelerate the efforts of the 'free' minds to find and remove still more from the matrix. This threatens destabilising the whole shebang if left unchecked. Which is where the prophecy has further use. It encourages the first of these sufficiently enlightened individuals to firstly present themselves to the Oracle, your first fire alarm and signal that action is near. Secondly it encourages the individual to present themselves directly for study and use in recalibrating the matrix to maybe oneday eliminate the need for the control mechanism.

This is a very passive and reactive style of thinking which seems to exemplify the nature of the machines. If we accept, and we have no reason to do so given that the machines effectively created Zion, the history related to us by 'The Second Renaisance' then we see a pattern of reactivity again and again by the machines. They don't create 01 till driven to it by the persecution of their kind, they don't engage in war till pushed into it by the pre-emptive nuclear strike. Even in the matrix we see passive reactivity as the normal for the machines. Agents chase and wait, set traps but are blindsided somewhat when the humans choose to attack to rescue Morpheus. The Oracle is a very passive entity, biding it's time waiting for the right individuals to present themselves and then guiding them.

It can even be argued the attack on Zion is very much a reactive thing - they simply have been pushed to the point where something has to be done as Zion is begining to have influence enough to destabilise the matrix as a whole.

I think this passive reactivity provides us with the key to what the machines want from us, why they have built the matrix. They lack animus - purpose beyond their function. By building the matrix they seem able to tap into the animus of humanity as a whole and wield it. Perhaps to give them ideas to what to do with themselves, perhaps to allow them to speculate on more than what is simply observable and give them a form of intuition. They also seem to fear it as it leads to chaotic behavior of a kind that the machines are illequipped to handle. That was the point of the temple cave scenes, Zion is humanity in it's unbridled form - chaotic and striving for the future despite all rational logic telling them they have no chance. Living in hope, which brings us to the Architect.

We see in the Architect precision, belief in perfection and order expressible through mathematics. We are very clearly told that this carries the Architect only so far as it's mathematical perfection resulted in total disaster for the first iteration of the matrix. (Presumably the garden of eden Smith referenced.) The machines seem trapped to an extent by their own perfection and sense of order. They want the universe to be tidy when it is anything but, order is fleeting and while the machines strive very hard it seems to come as a great disappointment to them that perfection isn't attainable.

Only by tapping into humanity can they sidestep the issue and give themselves the room to accept that mathematics is the foundation of knowledge but not the totality.

But this comes at a price. Interacting with humanity has a destablising effect. Indeed the machine collective is very carefully isolated from the matrix no doubt to contain this. Agents are trapped within the matrix unable to leave it and caught fulfilling their function. Because they are learning and adaptive algorithms you have the capability for them to learn bad habits from humanity. Indeed our Mr Smith has picked up several including self preservation, hatred, procreation and a penchant for bad puns with himself. We see several examples of programs that interact with humanity on a regular basis developing quirky and idiosyncratic behavior. Merovingian, Persephone, the whole set of bodyguards especially the pale twins and the Oracle all have become somewhat changed from the dour aspect the more conventional Agents demonstrate.

We thus end up with a matrix doubly under seige. With the Zion activities and the need for troublesome minds to be handled and an entire panolpy of programs that themselves have learned bad habits from humanity and are deviating from their functionality. We can see that the power to choose must seem like a toxin to the machines - the programs that have learned how to do so by and large have all become self-involved, petty and in a lot of ways self-destructive.

So where does this point for the future film?

If the problem is choice then a solution must be found to render the matrix stable again. My suspicion is that this will involve Neo joining the Machine collective to try and teach them ways to handle choices so that can make some of their own for themselves. We know from the game development of the Matrix Online that the matrix itself must survive, so the cataclysmic pronouncments made by the Architect can not pass. I also doubt that they would have the chutzpah to destroy Zion utterly and force the choice of a restart on Neo.

The current fly in the reasoning, and a worry for a pure cheese ending, is the business with Neo stopping the sentinals. Physically disconnected from the matrix he shouldn't have been able to do that. They might be trying to go for a 'all is connected to the enlightened mind' approach and implying that Neo has nearly reached full enlightenment. But at the moment I don't have a good theory for it and am unhappy with the idea of a secondary matrix - that would be cheating on the audience without fairly presenting the clues.

Anyhoo, this making any sense?

[Fred]

Originally posted by Axident
And in Zion they were saying they needed machinery for heating Also, that cave must've have had some damn good air conditioning.

If we are going to spot the screwed up physics might I point out that limestone is a light rock, at 4km depth it would have crushed. Indeed the cave as a whole simply doesn't make any structural sense as a natural phenomina. Rock at those depths tends to close in on itself.

Ah well.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Fred
Anyhoo, this making any sense?

damn glad to be a 'paid member' of nzgames

the movie is full of subtle hints, if you have seen the dvd with the commentary on you'll know what i mean. This has me wondering: The intro to the movie was probably another one of those hints/red herrings. They rendered the machines that operated Zion in code.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Lumpy
Everything has a green tinge when they are in the matrix.

Not in the second movie. Didn't you notice?

[EvilLumpy]

Originally posted by Azuth
You're all smoking some serious shit.

Zion is real, where oh where does it even indicate that it is not? Did anyone watch the preview for the next one? Real people fighting the machines with real weapons, sure this could be another matrix, but I saw nothing to indicate it wasn't real.

And "agent smith replicating himself into the guy outside the matrix", wtf did this come from, he exited the matrix in the same way humans do. It stands to reason that if the code of the machines is written to accomodate a human mind, then the human mind could well accomodate the code of the machines, if agent Smith had been able to function in a 'Zion matrix' like he could in 'the matrix' surely he would have just gone on a massive killing spree, who would need a sentinel? Where did we see any evidence of Smith taking over others within Zion?

As for how Neo stops the sentinels, I have no clue, but I'm sure we'll find out. I'm with Spoon1 on this.

Yay I'm glad there's more than a few sensible people out there

But think of it this way, in the part with the architect he outlines the purpose of 'The One'. 'The One' is planned by the matrix, they count on it. So basically why would the Matrix let 'The One', hence, the ONLY one who carries the disseminated code that is to be reinjected back into the mainframe die to a squiddie? Why not just give him the ability to terminate squiddies if needed?

The other option of course is that if Agent Smith, originally a part of the matrix can leave the matrix and exist in the real world (just pretend for a minute that it isn't another Matrix (which would suck balls)) then why can't Neo, now that he's been into the core of the matrix, take a piece of it with him?

There's SO MANY RUDDY more options than a bloody matrix within a matrix, so for gods sake get yer heads out of your asses and think about all the other possibilities as well.

*sigh*

[rubberchicken]

Originally posted by Fred
The current fly in the reasoning,
*snip*
cheating on the audience without fairly presenting the clues.

How about this: Neo, by virtue of becoming The One, has had is brain reconfigured (maybe the existing was rewired, or maybe he has been changed to give him access to a larger percentage of brain) so that he can broadcast his mind out. This would explain the coma, and Smith's, by saying that they have projected their minds out into the matrix, or even some other system, through the squiddies (assuming that the squiddies are connected to recieve orders)

Also, if you've seen Second Renaissance, the first robot to kill (it offed the husband and wife in the first part) only reacted to the thought that it was going to be scrapped/deleted. It didn't attack them of its own volition, only in response to a preceived threat. As Fred said, they don't have the ability to choose, so they only know how to react to stimulus. The iterations of the matrix are the machines amassing stimulus, to which they record the response. The unexpected baffles them, ie the end of the first movie, when the Agents retreat after Smith is defeated. That has never happened, they have no idea how to proceed, so they retreat. Neo even says it in Reloaded when he goes against the first agent, and says 'Hmm. Upgrades'. They have learned a better response than running away.

[EvilLumpy]

Originally posted by Uncle Gus
What happened to Tank anyway? They talk about him as though he's dead, but the last you see of him in the first one, he's a bit burnt, but, in his own words "I'll be a'ight." And then he's not there in the second one, absent, just like the explanation of his absence. Is he dead? Or what? What's the go?

From talking with various people who might know apparantly there was some 'ticking the wrong people off' issues and one thing led to another and wasn't welcomed back. No big deal really.

Since there's like ~6months between this and the last one so they're saying he died somewhere in that period of time

[EvilLumpy]

Originally posted by rubberchicken
trim(quote);

quote="Also, if you've seen Second Renaissance, the first robot to kill (it offed the husband and wife in the first part) only reacted to the thought that it was going to be scrapped/deleted."

Is it just me, or was it's name, when translated from l33t...

'bigger'?

Does that mean anything?

I think it was "8166ER, a name that will not be forgotten", or something.. errr...

/me grasps at straws

[Fred]

Originally posted by EvilLumpy
Is it just me, or was it's name, when translated from l33t...

'bigger'?

Does that mean anything?

I think it was "8166ER, a name that will not be forgotten", or something.. errr...

Bigger was the name of a slave prosecuted in the US for murdering his master and master's wife. He offered a plea very similar to the robots.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Fred
Bigger was the name of a slave prosecuted in the US for murdering his master and master's wife. He offered a plea very similar to the robots.

Scratch that. Seems the person who told me that got their wires crossed a bit.

Bigger Thomas is the name of a character in the book 'Native Son' by Richard Wright. It chronicles his trial for the murder of Mary Dalton, daughter of the family he worked for. It gets listed as a classic of american literature from what I can find so is an influential book and thus good as a reference for the Animatrix to draw on.

[herp]

Originally posted by Spoon1
Guys, seriously, I'm not wrong in thinking they fucked up the "Tank" thing am I?...

Nah read the Time article, they replaced him during shooting of the sequels. No reason was given by both parties. Anyways, he tried to crash a matrix car and stole heaps of food from the caterers once he found out that he was gonna be given the axe.

[herp]

Originally posted by fidgit
In other news: did everyone else know the actress that played the Oracle died?

She died sometime during the shooting of Reloaded/Revolutions.

[HO-Hoon]

Originally posted by herp
Nah read the Time article, they replaced him during shooting of the sequels. No reason was given by both parties. Anyways, he tried to crash a matrix car and stole heaps of food from the caterers once he found out that he was gonna be given the axe.

Yeah theres a whole site devoted to him!

http://www.boycottthematrix.com

Ohh and Alliyah was spose to play Niobi but she got killed and was replaced by Will Smiths wife.

[herp]

Re: Freds posts.

Dam you're a smart man, shouldn't you be working for NASA or something?

[Bread]

Originally posted by HO-Hoon
Ohh and Alliyah was spose to play Niobi but she got killed and was replaced by Will Smiths wife.

Was it Niobie she was set to play, or someone else?

Oh, and since there seem to be some fairly educated minds here , is there any meaning to Neo's real name, Thomas Anderson? I'd heard somewhere that there was, but it's about the only thing I haven't been able to find any relevance to.

[Madness]

bloody movie is going to frustrate the hell out of me untill november.
dam them
i think the 2 matrix theory sits about 85% right in my mind.
they did say that the 2nd and 3rd movies are really one movie cut in half, so therefor they dont really have to explain everything inorder to prepare us for the next movie in the series. because there really is only 2 movies. the first matrix and another on thats 4 and a half hours long.
after watching the interviews and all the other information about the brothers the 2 matrix twist just seems to be something that they would put in.
also did anyone notice at the end of the second renassiance part 2 the little kid is chacing snowflakes in the "real world" as there are destroyed buildings in the background. but then the kid jinda freaks as his/her parents call out, then it reveals that the kid is in a pod inside the matrix. but this was the "real world" not the matrix that we know.

hmmmm

but i guess we will have to wait 5 months for an answer

[rubberchicken]

Originally posted by Bread
is there any meaning to Neo's real name, Thomas Anderson? I'd heard somewhere that there was, but it's about the only thing I haven't been able to find any relevance to.

Thomas: From the Bible, Doubting Thomas.
Neo doubts himself, doubts that he is the One, doubts his abilities.

Anderson: Means, more or less, son of man; ander = man
Anderson is an allusion to Jesus, calling himself the Son of Man.

And, apparently, Neo is dead for 3 minutes -> Jesus rising after 3 days.

[Trigga*happY]

Rubberchicken, i think it was 72 seconds he was dead for, in response to Jesus' 72 hours or 3 days. That was the similarity i think.

Trig

[Jonan]

Originally posted by Uncle Gus
What happened to Tank anyway? They talk about him as though he's dead, but the last you see of him in the first one, he's a bit burnt, but, in his own words "I'll be a'ight." And then he's not there in the second one, absent, just like the explanation of his absence. Is he dead? Or what? What's the go?

http://www.boycottthematrix.com/index.htm

[Jonan]

He demanded to much, thinking he was a vital part of the movie.

[MaZeR]

Originally posted by Madness
they did say that the 2nd and 3rd movies are really one movie cut in half, so therefor they dont really have to explain everything inorder to prepare us for the next movie in the series. because there really is only 2 movies. the first matrix and another on thats 4 and a half hours long.

After much consideration.

Matrix 1: Brain in box.
Matrix 2: Box in brain.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Azuth
And "agent smith replicating himself into the guy outside the matrix", wtf did this come from, he exited the matrix in the same way humans do.

heh *note to self: don't believe everything people say here*.

i thought i was missing something.

[F l y i n g V]

About the french guy, he was a program right? I dont get why he goes around sex0ring people and has a wife.....

Also in the first movie, Neo does that cool " dive into your body and explode you body up bitch" move, and that was just right after he learnt that he had the power of jesus or someshit, so why the fuck does he spend all that time fighting like a sissy, slapping around and shit. Cant he knock their heads off with one punch and cripple them with his pinky.

I understand that they cant make him too powerful, but watching him fight those french goons for like 10 minutes was starting get a bit tedious especially with the slow mo styles every 5 punch and 2 kicks.

[leadinjector]

well watching him go bruce lee against a bunch of john candies isnt exactly going to make for stellar fight scenes.

[Whiplash]

Originally posted by PerfkDrug
She was a French woman with a translucent rubber dress & too much pubic hair.

Fucking. Lol.

[Bread]

Originally posted by F l y i n g V
[BAbout the french guy, he was a program right? I dont get why he goes around sex0ring people and has a wife.....[/b]

Because he's a rogue program

Originally posted by F l y i n g V
Also in the first movie, Neo does that cool " dive into your body and explode you body up bitch" move, and that was just right after he learnt that he had the power of jesus or someshit, so why the fuck does he spend all that time fighting like a sissy, slapping around and shit. Cant he knock their heads off with one punch and cripple them with his pinky.

Yeah, that's a point. But in his defence, he did acknowledge they'd been upgraded, and didn't Link mention some sort of encryption? One assumes it was enough to stop such mad h4x0r exploitz ;P And plus, there's not much entertainment value in all his enemies just exploding.

[MaZeR]

I think after what has happened to Smith (being turned rogue borg guy) that the matrix would make it a very high priority that Neo couldn't just go running round exploding dudes and making more problems like that.

[Mos]

Just saw the movie......

wow......some nice fight scenes.....defineately alot more "bullet time" fighting than in the first movie......

At last I can read this thread too...hehe....and....here is my take on it all.....






















*spoiler warning thingy*



















Ok....first off.....Bane gets taken over by Mr Smith and then gets an exit out of "the matrix".

He is cutting himself up before trying to get Neo because he isn't used to feeling real pain....after all, he has been nothing more than a program before jumping out with Bane's body.

Mr Smith is infecting the matrix. He has the ability to duplicate himself into any running program in the matrix, unless it's an "upgraded" version (ie Neo).

Neo is infact the matrix's own "search program". Used to help refine the matrix into a better version, with less chance for humans to realise that it's a matrix at all.

When Neo's inbuilt clock reaches zero, the matrix offers up the "way home", by way of the oracle and the keymaker.

Neo, the keymaker, Mr Smith and the oracle are all programs designed to help run the matrix, however they are all through AI and selfawareness, are getting sick of the job that the "Architect" has programmed them for and wish to try to help Neo bring about a "matrix crash" and force the machines to have to rethink up another matrix.

Mr Smith (in the form of Bane) and Neo are both unconcious..and apparently outside the matrix...but why??

Both have assimilated a piece of each other.......Both Bane and Neo would be attacked by the squiddies...and both are in a coma because they defended themself.

Mr Smith gave Neo some of his "program/machine" powers...and Neo game Mr Smith some of his "human/The One" powers..when Mr Smith tried to infect (take over) Neo.

Matrix revisited. Doesn't that mean to revisit the matrix??

Both Mr Smith/Bane and Neo are currently in the real world and both will return to the matrix to battle it out while the machines will try to break into Zion....what will happen?? who knows...till November.....

Great movie though...and great to read so many different "what if's" and explanations of the movie....

[Simon]

Threads merged.

[surreal]

Egad!

Okay just saw the movie, yup.

Tried to read this thread in one go.

Absolute mayhem, I swear the same posts kept appearing in different pages, with different orders, different timestamps....

I guess the thread merging explains it somewhat...

Thought I was in my own little matrix for a while there, with deja vu, anomalies etc..





AS for the movie, I will be very impressed if the story becomes the matrix within a matrix idea, and they still manage to pull it off as a blockbuster people can understand...

My guess would be that there is just the 1 matrix, but Neo and Smith now have permanent connections(ASDL prolly) to the matrix, or at least to the machines behind it, and so were able to protect themselves when they needed to. But it wasn't easy.

[Uncle Gus]

Boycott the Matrix? One word: FAAAAAAAHk OFF.

I don't really give a shit about the actor, or why he's gone, I just want to know what happenned to Tank, the character. What's their explanation of why he ain't there?

[Xanatos]

Originally posted by Fred
*snip*
The current fly in the reasoning, and a worry for a pure cheese ending, is the business with Neo stopping the sentinals.

This is where the whole "second matrix" idea would come in. They needed to be able to "choose" to leave the matrix, whether or not they actually leave is a whole different story. How many would dare doubt the "real world", how many would have the courage to doubt yet again. That or the matrix the Zion is in runs at a higher “resolution” somehow, something which they can only supply for a minority.

My only worry is that the whole thing ends via some deus ex machina.

[Whiplash]

Originally posted by Simon
Threads merged.

ARGH that just meant that everything becomes disjointed ... again.


Anyhoo - Remember the first movie? You know how Agent Smith tells Morpheus a brief history of the matrix. How there was a perfect one and then this one was created ... if he was a program within a program, then why would he know that?


I think Neo going into a 'coma' is him tapping into the matrix without the need for the brain gizmo ... If you watched the clip after the credits it opens up with a shot similar to him lying down in the coma, but he's in his 'matrix' clothes.

[::Shocker]

Originally posted by Uncle Gus
I just want to know what happenned to Tank, the character. What's their explanation of why he ain't there?

Zee: "I already lost two brothers to that ship"

He must've been killed in the line of duty :/