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Old 9th December 2019, 16:23     #1
Lightspeed
 
Eruption at Whakaari/White Island

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...i-white-island

Quote:
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says at this stage, "we believe 100 people were on, or around the island".

Some are "unaccounted for".
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Old 9th December 2019, 18:49     #2
BoyWonder
 
27 unaccounted for apparently. Could be pretty grim
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Old 9th December 2019, 18:59     #3
pxpx
 
1 Confirmed fatality and they aren't landing on the island at the moment
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Old 9th December 2019, 21:43     #4
Lightspeed
 
This Twitter thread is incredible.
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Old 9th December 2019, 23:12     #5
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
This Twitter thread is incredible.
Holy shit!!
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Old 10th December 2019, 16:56     #6
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
As someone who considers himself a child of the BOP (Steamers represent), my first reaction was what the fuck were people doing on the island?

Whakaari was in pretty much constant eruption my whole childhood and in my head it's always been in the unsafe places box. I didn't even know there were now tourist visits. Well, were tourist visits.
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Old 10th December 2019, 17:05     #7
Lightspeed
 
Police have just announced a criminal investigation.
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Old 10th December 2019, 18:51     #8
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Police have just announced a criminal investigation.
Because of the increased activity on the island over the last few weeks yet not cancelling the tours? Seems sensible to at minimum investigate to rule out criminal negligence. Or confirm it.
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Old 11th December 2019, 09:18     #9
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Police have just announced a criminal investigation.
They just announced that they didn't mean to announce that, and there isn't one.
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Old 11th December 2019, 09:55     #10
blynk
 
I think what you need to look at is

1 - what does level 2 actually mean. Does it mean there is a 50% chance it will erupt, or a 1%.

2 - Along with that, the last time I believe it erupted was a very long time ago. How many times has it been at level 2. I believe a lot.

I think the wording criminal investigation is misleading. It makes it sound like there is actually something wrong.
It should be more like an enquiry to ensure that good and correct practices were in place.
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Old 11th December 2019, 11:59     #11
StN
I have detailed files
 
I understand what they meant to say was that Police have been asked to investigate to support the Coronial enquiry due to it being classed by the Chief Coroner as a mass fatality incident.
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Old 11th December 2019, 14:57     #12
fixed_truth
 
Should visiting the island be banned? There's obviously risk involved in going to an active volcano. If the company followed the rules then maybe make some extra regulations or something & let people make an informed decision whether they want to take the risk.
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Old 11th December 2019, 16:14     #13
blynk
 
I would assume that they did let people know about the risks, but is it like T&Cs and no one pays attention to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
I understand what they meant to say was that Police have been asked to investigate to support the Coronial enquiry due to it being classed by the Chief Coroner as a mass fatality incident.
Yes, my understanding too, but Criminal Investigation still sounds like they have already determined the Tour companies were in the the wrong and they will be charged.
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Old 11th December 2019, 16:29     #14
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
the last time I believe it erupted was a very long time ago.
2016
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Old 11th December 2019, 16:52     #15
StN
I have detailed files
 
Can the Government ban access to private property?
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Old 11th December 2019, 21:40     #16
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
A Level 2 or 3 (a minor eruption) will prompt GNS Science to send warnings via the media, Civil Defence and aviation authorities, local councils and social media. But that's all it can do. Legally, it cannot stop people landing on the island or sightseeing close by from a boat. "We don't have a legitimate mandate to stop people," Scott says.
Quote:
Scott says tour companies licensed to take visitors to the island, one boat operator and three helicopter companies in Whakatane, Rotorua and Tauranga, make up their own minds after checking the volcano's activity. "It's the way New Zealand works."
Quote:
GNS Science staff have had "terse discussions" with tour operators who have landed visitors on the island in conditions which make volcanologists anxious. "We don't visit but they still go."
5 years ago https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=11320205
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Old 12th December 2019, 15:48     #17
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/12/...-white-island/
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Old 12th December 2019, 17:03     #18
fixed_truth
 
I'm wondering how informed tourists actually were about the dangers. 18,000 tourist per yeah over a few decades(?) is a big built up of anecdotal evidence that understates the actual risk. If tours do continue I suppose anyone willing to go there fully knows the risks now.
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Old 13th December 2019, 18:10     #19
blynk
 
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.
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Old 14th December 2019, 11:31     #20
reac
Min Sicker Reac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.
Yes.
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Old 14th December 2019, 13:03     #21
Lightspeed
 
One way to look at the phenomena is as a historical artefact of complex human living. You can see them everywhere if you look, however we're raised thinking everything is proper and ordered, rational and coherent, so that's what we're cued to recognise and acknowledge, things that don't fit having a sense of wrongness to them.

This view of the world as ordered is just one of the many abstractions from reality we indulge in, which are powerful tools while they work. Problems emerge when we confuse our abstractions with reality. From power struggles: people fighting to assert their abstraction, to simple stupidity: acting with the abstraction despite it obviously being a large step away from observed reality.

We're still pretty hooked on ideas of the right way and the wrong way, but these are giving way as we mature.
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Old 14th December 2019, 14:27     #22
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Thanks Nahaz

Drink!
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Old 14th December 2019, 16:16     #23
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
Can the Government ban access to private property?
I assume it'd be a public exclusion zone like the chch red zone was, which impacted private property for sure.
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Old 14th December 2019, 16:53     #24
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.
Can anyone me why blynk doesn't consider this totally normal?
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Old 14th December 2019, 18:45     #25
Lightspeed
 
People caught up in their lives. We've set things up this way. Our systems designed to inform and influence are committed to getting people to buy stuff or vote against their interests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Thanks Nahaz

Drink!
Anyone get the reference, it's lost on me?
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Old 14th December 2019, 19:41     #26
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.
That's actually its official name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whakaari/White_Island

Different of course to Mt Taranaki which was known as and renamed (officially from 2020) Mt Egmont
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Last edited by MadMax : 14th December 2019 at 19:46.
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Old 15th December 2019, 18:23     #27
StN
I have detailed files
 
Oh - I am reminded of the tax loophole that was opened and closed for gift duty when Aoraki/Mt Cook was granted to Ngai Tahu as part of the settlement, and they gave it back. GG
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Old 15th December 2019, 22:24     #28
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
when Aoraki/Mt Cook was returned to Ngai Tahu
ftfy
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Old 16th December 2019, 08:09     #29
StN
I have detailed files
 
^ Good point.
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Old 30th November 2020, 14:17     #30
Lightspeed
 
WorkSafe files charges against 13 parties in wake of Whakaari/White Island tragedy
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Old 9th December 2020, 15:12     #31
StN
I have detailed files
 
I can't help thinking that these Whakaari White Island prosecutions are related to Worksafe's "Everyone gets home safely" driver. With everyone working from home for half a year, they have to justify their existence...

Then again, maybe they need test(ed) cases for the heroes to get off - if only they could claim compo for the stress. I don't think a petition is the right way to get a lasting result for "You are being prosecuted because you flew your helicopter into a dangerous area without thought for your safety and as a side effect saved 12(?) people..."
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Old 9th December 2020, 15:22     #32
Lightspeed
 
My guess it's a situation where they can't pick and choose who to prosecute if the law is to be applied even and fairly.

It doesn't seem like the case where individual scientists were charged in Italy for not adequately predicting an earthquake.

The law will be exposed as not fit for purpose if those responding to an emergency are convicted for their efforts.
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Old 10th December 2020, 21:05     #33
blynk
 
Yeah, I understand the emotion of it. But let's take a different view.

A person is driving up to an intersection, and sees someone run a red light and crashes into the car in front of them.
Theres a huge fire. They risk their life pulling a baby out of the back seat.
Wow a hero.
Then you find out that in the previous 2 weeks, that hero racked up 25 red light offences and speeding offences
Do you wave them all because they risked their lives?

Those heroes could have been the ones on the island that day. Carrying tourists that were killed.
Just because you did something great one day, doesn't neccessary give you a free pass for all the wrong you may have done in the past.

Admittedly, I don't know the full extent of what "prosecutions" are.
Are they actual court cases, are they investigations? What are they trying to establish
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:28     #34
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Yeah, I understand the emotion of it. But let's take a different view.

A person is driving up to an intersection, and sees someone run a red light and crashes into the car in front of them.
Theres a huge fire. They risk their life pulling a baby out of the back seat.
Wow a hero.
Then you find out that in the previous 2 weeks, that hero racked up 25 red light offences and speeding offences
Do you wave them all because they risked their lives?

Those heroes could have been the ones on the island that day. Carrying tourists that were killed.
Just because you did something great one day, doesn't neccessary give you a free pass for all the wrong you may have done in the past.

Admittedly, I don't know the full extent of what "prosecutions" are.
Are they actual court cases, are they investigations? What are they trying to establish
The thing your analogy doesn't account for is prior to this heroism the organisation prosecuting you for risking yourself signed off that running the red lights was OK and at an acceptable level of risk.

WorkSafe had just two weeks before signed off that the flights over and visits to the island were fine.
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Old 11th December 2020, 08:53     #35
blynk
 
Thank you for the clarification. That was a part I had not heard.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:51     #36
crocos
 
Pardon me - two months not weeks, but still.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118...efore-eruption

And like so many things it's a little more nuanced than my memories of it. Still - WorkSafe definitely knew about this, was involved in auditing operations on the island, and said bupkis.
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Last edited by crocos : 11th December 2020 at 11:54.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 12:23     #37
Lightspeed
 
Whakaari/White Island: Confusion over safety responsibilities at senior level

Quote:
As minister since 2017, Mahuta has automatically been the territorial authority for eleven offshore islands such as Whakaari/White Island, Mōtītī Island and Tūhua (Mayor Island).

Department of Internal Affairs staff have spent months reviewing her health and safety, civil defence and emergency management duties for Whakaari.

They have now told her: "It is not clear in the legislation how your role as Territorial Authority is intended to work in practice."
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Old 18th December 2022, 15:27     #38
[fe]
 
Whakaari doc is up on Netflix.
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Old 31st October 2023, 18:27     #39
Lightspeed
 
Whakaari Management convicted of one health and safety charge relating to fatal eruption

Quote:
"WorkSafe has established that Whakaari Management is not a passive landowner," the judge said. "The relevant duty was for WML to ensure that the health of safety of persons it permitted to be on Whakaari was not put at risk."

He said Whakaari Management had not done proper risk assessments or engaged with experts at research institute GNS Science.

"The interaction between WML and GNS was not enough to amount to taking necessary expert advice on the risk of permitting tours on Whakaari," Thomas said.

"[It] was ad-hoc, infrequent, unstructured, informal and incomplete when much more was required."
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