ABs -> UK after RWC: First Mauger, now Jack

caffiend · 5th March 2007, 00:37

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3981574a1823.html

Who next?

Mauger's a good player, but he won't be missed half as much as Jack will be. All it would take is for McCaw and Carter also to be lured to Europe and you'd have a fairly serious dent put in the post-RWC team in terms of experience and cohesion.

$2.1 million? No way can the NZRU or local Super 14 franchises compete with that sort of cash.

Edit: And a lesser issue; if players are leaving the ABs after the RWC, will it make them play better, or would it be a mental distraction?

Dalcon · 5th March 2007, 02:07

We have the best 2 teams in the world. No Jack will kake the ABs weaker, but won't make the ABs weak. That goes for almost any player.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 5th March 2007, 09:27

Our competition to $2.1M is the lure of the black jersery. Because you can't be selected if you play overseas it keeps people here. But if you're getting on in your career (or they figgure they probably wont make the world cup after this one) then its fair enough to move into the 'retirement leagues' of Europe. They'll be missed but someone will step up to replace them.

farns · 5th March 2007, 10:07

They are only 3yr contracts, they could well come back and play 1-1.5 seasons in NZ before RWC2011

Jack will be a loss cos he appears to being fking strong as well as a good player and IMO we lack big strong quality specialist locks in the Sharpe/Botha mould. But Eaton is showing signs of being the next Chris Jack though hes not quite as beefy

If McCaw went that would be a national disaster lol because hes the worlds best forward but he doesnt seem like he would at this stage of his career

blynk · 5th March 2007, 11:09

I think McCaw (like Umaga) is the type of player/person who would not leave and play overseas until they actually retire the international rugby.

slippers · 6th March 2007, 16:11

Theres heaps ofplayers who could replace Jack and Mauger isnt really a 1st choice player anyway.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 6th March 2007, 17:54

Mauger is the man. He may not be as flashy as other player but he is a cool head and solid rock in the backline. The kind of player who makes those around him look good.

badassmofo · 6th March 2007, 18:28

Jack really is getting to the end of his International Career as far as NZ Players go, we're just letting them go younger and younger these days. But the earning lifespan of a pro rugby player is pretty short, and that's why most players end up overseas. They need to make the money to support their families earlier down the track, and who wouldn't want the best quality of life possible?!

See the Wallabies are looking at bring back Matt Burke. Maybe we should pull Christian Cullen back from overseas

farns · 6th March 2007, 18:45

lol Jack isnt getting old IMO, he just needs to fire up like he did for the Lions 2005 when he led the pack which bashed them in the first test
Hes convincingly the best lock we have still IMO, even though hes not quite as omnipresent as he was, hes a very strong mauler/maul defender and pushes like a truck and always makes yards. Its his skill and power in the tight stuff that allows Williams and Eaton to play looser IMO.
It seems in test rugby you always need at least one really strong lock, like Martin Johnson, Bakkies Botha, Paul O'Connell to swing the forward battle your way
Eaton is a little bit lightweight at the moment (maybe not after this reconditioning) to be the main grunt lock, Ryan doesnt throw his weight around either enough IMO, Williams had a great game vs France but Jack is still bloody good.
Martin Johnson was arguably the worlds best lock until he was about 34 and that wasnt that long ago, even in professional rugby.
Jack just needs to fire up, hopefully he will this year.

caffiend · 6th March 2007, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by farns

Eaton is a little bit lightweight at the moment (maybe not after this reconditioning) to be the main grunt lock...

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...006067,00.html

Quote:

In six weeks, second-rower Jason Eaton has put on 8kg and fullback Mils Muliania has added 5kg to his frame.

Like you said, the conditioning aim is to make these buggers faster, bigger, stronger. We can rebuild them.

Quote:

But former Wallaby and ABC commentator Brett Papworth yesterday warned the All Blacks they need to be careful and said there was no need for Australia to panic.

"You need footballers with a football brain who are practised at making good football decisions and you don't do that in the gym."

I have to say, he's got a point...

farns · 6th March 2007, 22:53

Ewen McKenzie the Waraths coach in that article is spot on IMHO:

"You need footballers with a football brain who are practised at making good football decisions and you don't do that in the gym."

Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie said there was the question of tactics, strategy and endurance to consider.

"If you whack five, six or seven kilos on a bloke they have to carry that weight – and if you do it in quick time you have to get used to carrying that weight," McKenzie said.

"There are a lot bigger sides running around like the South Africans – so size isn't everything."

Not that Im some expert, Im just a coach potato who played a bit of school rugby lol, but I do think bulking up is not the same as players that are naturally big framed, it doesnt work well in boxing for example which is a physical contact sport with some peripheral similarities in basic physiology.

The Pom forwards for instance are humungous gym freaks, their prop Sheridan is probably the strongest guy to ever play high level rugby, anyway Ive gone completely off topic lol

Rumor · 6th March 2007, 23:32

I thought the reason for the reconditioning was just that, to get them BACK into shape, since they play rugby like 90% of the year their bodies reach a certain level where they are not gaining or loosing anything (due to wear and tear), so this will give them a chance to build up without breaking down as much.

I agree with it, if you want to see how off season training can help when you have a real off season, then I would probally use Yao Ming as a good indication.

2002-2003 Before he joined the NBA (had never had a personal trainer or done any weight training due to his Coaches back in China)

Present day (each season he comes back a little more ripped and stronger)

farns · 7th March 2007, 00:12

I think getting them superfit and stronger is a very good idea and Im sure they are doing it right with tailored programmmes and whatnot but it might be risky to change their bodyshapes too much as they only have half a season to get used to it, like McKenzie said. It sounds like its only a few players that are getting the bulking up treatment, the rest are just increasing cardio and strength , plus they will play the end of the S12, so they should get enough game time before the 3N hopefully.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 7th March 2007, 12:17

It is not like they only have that extra weight on the rugby field. They'll still be running/training which would get you used to it.

caffiend · 7th March 2007, 12:24

Weepu has lost 8kgs.

Again, very off topic now - this deserves its own thread really, but: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle1466482.ece

Ard Righ · 7th March 2007, 12:30

Conditioning for these players won't be anything new to them. Most of them would have had to do a lot of this sort of stuff when they first become professional players. The more regulated workouts they are given would be a step up from the amateur stuff.

In regards to maybe not getting enough rugby, the end of the S14 and the Tri-Nations are normally the hardest parts of the season for the top players. So they'll be straight in the deep end, and the fitness levels will come along with that hard rugby

caffiend · 7th March 2007, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ard Righ

... the fitness levels will come along with that hard rugby

Or the injuries...

farns · 7th March 2007, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by caffiend

Weepu has lost 8kgs.

Good, he was a little fat bastard lol, I bet the league training opened his eyes a bit in terms of professionalism

caffiend · 7th March 2007, 12:56

Yeah, but a big part of his game is rapidly getting momentum from breakdowns to gain yardage and drawing 2 or sometimes even 3 opposition players into bringing him down. I hope he doesn't lose any of that because he's getting smaller.

farns · 7th March 2007, 13:18

Yeah hes strong and needs a bit of beef but he looked flat-out unfit last time I saw him play, hes a bit of a porker so prolly needs to train extra-hard.
He was great a coupla years ago and hopefully this camp will get him firing again, TBH Im sad that Justin Marshall left, his strength and attitude helped us beat the Lions and he was playing better than Kelleher before he left for UK.
He might possibly be starting to get on a bit now, plus playing in that inferior comp cant be great for keeping sharp.

mr selfdestruct · 7th March 2007, 14:43

I think it's amazing that Chris Jack is settling for a 2.1M contract when Tequiri is getting bids for him closer to 3.0M. Granted they play two completely different positions but if Tequiri can fish for that sort of money maybe Chris Jack and his manager need to shop around a bit more.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 7th March 2007, 17:47

Tequiri is getting those offers from league though isn't he? It depends on the length of the contract too. I don;t know the details of either so I can't really comment further

caffiend · 7th March 2007, 23:45

I saw Jason Eaton, Reuben Thorne and Greg Somerville walking out of the Intercontinental in Wellington this afternoon. Not having much of a frame of reference except for TV games it was hard to compare, but Eaton sure is a big bastard. Thorne's about 6'4" and 107kg*, but I'm 6'2" and 105kg*, so he didn't seem too big - but Eaton at 6'7" and now probably somewhere around 112kg* was frickin' huge.

* The difference being they're lean muscle and I'm... errr... not.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 8th March 2007, 11:12

Jeez a 112 you reckon? That is huge!

I remember seeing Joe Roko in person once. He always seemed a slim build on the game compared to everyone else but in person compared to normal people he is built solid.

Simon · 8th March 2007, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 25:17

Mauger is the man. He may not be as flashy as other player but he is a cool head and solid rock in the backline. The kind of player who makes those around him look good.

You mean "who time after time tries silly little chip kicks to the touchline even when there are unmarked teammates outside him screaming for the ball", right?

Simon · 8th March 2007, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr selfdestruct

I think it's amazing that Chris Jack is settling for a 2.1M contract when Tequiri is getting bids for him closer to 3.0M. Granted they play two completely different positions but if Tequiri can fish for that sort of money maybe Chris Jack and his manager need to shop around a bit more.

For political reasons the ARU is desperate to keep Tuqiri from returning to league.

CCS · 8th March 2007, 19:07

I guess Jack just isn't a greedy guy.

caffiend · 14th March 2007, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by caffiend

Or the injuries...

Hmmm... http://www.stuff.co.nz/3991764a1823.html

Ezekiel 25:17 · 14th March 2007, 13:29

well thems the risks i guess. There is a good chance that had they have played the first 7 rounds of super 14 a few of them atleast would have come away with injuries.

caffiend · 14th March 2007, 14:43

True - but that's going to be 14 weeks playing time that Muliaina is going to miss. He should be back for Tri-Nations/Bledisloe, but given he'll have to keep off his ankle he may not be able to keep up the conditioning he's just worked so hard to get, and he'll be missing game time.

Let's just hope these are unrelated to not having game time and random as you mention...

Ard Righ · 24th March 2007, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by caffiend

True - but that's going to be 14 weeks playing time that Muliaina is going to miss. He should be back for Tri-Nations/Bledisloe, but given he'll have to keep off his ankle he may not be able to keep up the conditioning he's just worked so hard to get, and he'll be missing game time.

Let's just hope these are unrelated to not having game time and random as you mention...

Sounds like the turf they were playing on must have been rock hard, because it's rather freakish to break a bone in your foot, just by wanting to change direction. The same game noted that Rokocoko limped off with a rolled ankle.

These sort of injuries happen when people play rugby in summer, on baked pitches that haven't been watered properly. It happens every year, it happens in the NRL as well.

It's just a freak occurance, end of story.

Ezekiel 25:17 · 25th March 2007, 13:14

Mils apparently had a fracture in his foot. That is why it broke. The doctor said it was always going to break. However if he had have played the whole season he would have broke it at the start and be returning about now... o the irony!

caffiend · 3rd April 2007, 00:30

So, injuries now to:
- Dan Carter
- Chris Jack
- Mils Muliaina
- Joe Rokocoko
- Luke McAlister

Varying, of course, and most only enough to cause a sit-out of 1 or 2 games. But just... interesting.

caffiend · 12th April 2007, 18:05

+ James Ryan

Still just coincidence?

blynk · 12th April 2007, 18:54

Oh well, we still got Ali Williams, Troy Flavell, the cheifs guy (forgot his name), Ross Filipo?

caffiend · 15th April 2007, 12:59

Carl Hayman signs for Newcastle: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4026964a1823.html

7th March 2007, 14:43	#21
mr selfdestruct The Deliverator	I think it's amazing that Chris Jack is settling for a 2.1M contract when Tequiri is getting bids for him closer to 3.0M. Granted they play two completely different positions but if Tequiri can fish for that sort of money maybe Chris Jack and his manager need to shop around a bit more. __________________ My real signature is not nearly as legible as this one.

5th March 2007, 00:37	#1
caffiend	ABs -> UK after RWC: First Mauger, now Jack http://www.stuff.co.nz/3981574a1823.html Who next? Mauger's a good player, but he won't be missed half as much as Jack will be. All it would take is for McCaw and Carter also to be lured to Europe and you'd have a fairly serious dent put in the post-RWC team in terms of experience and cohesion. $2.1 million? No way can the NZRU or local Super 14 franchises compete with that sort of cash. Edit: And a lesser issue; if players are leaving the ABs after the RWC, will it make them play better, or would it be a mental distraction? __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days? Last edited by caffiend : 5th March 2007 at 00:42.

5th March 2007, 02:07	#2
Dalcon	We have the best 2 teams in the world. No Jack will kake the ABs weaker, but won't make the ABs weak. That goes for almost any player. Last edited by Dalcon : 5th March 2007 at 02:09.

5th March 2007, 09:27	#3
Ezekiel 25:17	Our competition to $2.1M is the lure of the black jersery. Because you can't be selected if you play overseas it keeps people here. But if you're getting on in your career (or they figgure they probably wont make the world cup after this one) then its fair enough to move into the 'retirement leagues' of Europe. They'll be missed but someone will step up to replace them.

5th March 2007, 10:07	#4
farns	They are only 3yr contracts, they could well come back and play 1-1.5 seasons in NZ before RWC2011 Jack will be a loss cos he appears to being fking strong as well as a good player and IMO we lack big strong quality specialist locks in the Sharpe/Botha mould. But Eaton is showing signs of being the next Chris Jack though hes not quite as beefy If McCaw went that would be a national disaster lol because hes the worlds best forward but he doesnt seem like he would at this stage of his career

5th March 2007, 11:09	#5
blynk	I think McCaw (like Umaga) is the type of player/person who would not leave and play overseas until they actually retire the international rugby.

6th March 2007, 16:11	#6
slippers	Theres heaps ofplayers who could replace Jack and Mauger isnt really a 1st choice player anyway.

6th March 2007, 17:54	#7
Ezekiel 25:17	Mauger is the man. He may not be as flashy as other player but he is a cool head and solid rock in the backline. The kind of player who makes those around him look good.

6th March 2007, 18:28	#8
badassmofo	Jack really is getting to the end of his International Career as far as NZ Players go, we're just letting them go younger and younger these days. But the earning lifespan of a pro rugby player is pretty short, and that's why most players end up overseas. They need to make the money to support their families earlier down the track, and who wouldn't want the best quality of life possible?! See the Wallabies are looking at bring back Matt Burke. Maybe we should pull Christian Cullen back from overseas

6th March 2007, 18:45	#9
farns	lol Jack isnt getting old IMO, he just needs to fire up like he did for the Lions 2005 when he led the pack which bashed them in the first test Hes convincingly the best lock we have still IMO, even though hes not quite as omnipresent as he was, hes a very strong mauler/maul defender and pushes like a truck and always makes yards. Its his skill and power in the tight stuff that allows Williams and Eaton to play looser IMO. It seems in test rugby you always need at least one really strong lock, like Martin Johnson, Bakkies Botha, Paul O'Connell to swing the forward battle your way Eaton is a little bit lightweight at the moment (maybe not after this reconditioning) to be the main grunt lock, Ryan doesnt throw his weight around either enough IMO, Williams had a great game vs France but Jack is still bloody good. Martin Johnson was arguably the worlds best lock until he was about 34 and that wasnt that long ago, even in professional rugby. Jack just needs to fire up, hopefully he will this year.

6th March 2007, 22:53	#11
farns	Ewen McKenzie the Waraths coach in that article is spot on IMHO: "You need footballers with a football brain who are practised at making good football decisions and you don't do that in the gym." Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie said there was the question of tactics, strategy and endurance to consider. "If you whack five, six or seven kilos on a bloke they have to carry that weight – and if you do it in quick time you have to get used to carrying that weight," McKenzie said. "There are a lot bigger sides running around like the South Africans – so size isn't everything." Not that Im some expert, Im just a coach potato who played a bit of school rugby lol, but I do think bulking up is not the same as players that are naturally big framed, it doesnt work well in boxing for example which is a physical contact sport with some peripheral similarities in basic physiology. The Pom forwards for instance are humungous gym freaks, their prop Sheridan is probably the strongest guy to ever play high level rugby, anyway Ive gone completely off topic lol

6th March 2007, 23:32	#12
Rumor	I thought the reason for the reconditioning was just that, to get them BACK into shape, since they play rugby like 90% of the year their bodies reach a certain level where they are not gaining or loosing anything (due to wear and tear), so this will give them a chance to build up without breaking down as much. I agree with it, if you want to see how off season training can help when you have a real off season, then I would probally use Yao Ming as a good indication. 2002-2003 Before he joined the NBA (had never had a personal trainer or done any weight training due to his Coaches back in China) Present day (each season he comes back a little more ripped and stronger)

7th March 2007, 00:12	#13
farns	I think getting them superfit and stronger is a very good idea and Im sure they are doing it right with tailored programmmes and whatnot but it might be risky to change their bodyshapes too much as they only have half a season to get used to it, like McKenzie said. It sounds like its only a few players that are getting the bulking up treatment, the rest are just increasing cardio and strength , plus they will play the end of the S12, so they should get enough game time before the 3N hopefully.

7th March 2007, 12:17	#14
Ezekiel 25:17	It is not like they only have that extra weight on the rugby field. They'll still be running/training which would get you used to it.

7th March 2007, 12:24	#15
caffiend	Weepu has lost 8kgs. Again, very off topic now - this deserves its own thread really, but: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle1466482.ece __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?

7th March 2007, 12:30	#16
Ard Righ	Conditioning for these players won't be anything new to them. Most of them would have had to do a lot of this sort of stuff when they first become professional players. The more regulated workouts they are given would be a step up from the amateur stuff. In regards to maybe not getting enough rugby, the end of the S14 and the Tri-Nations are normally the hardest parts of the season for the top players. So they'll be straight in the deep end, and the fitness levels will come along with that hard rugby

7th March 2007, 12:56	#19
caffiend	Yeah, but a big part of his game is rapidly getting momentum from breakdowns to gain yardage and drawing 2 or sometimes even 3 opposition players into bringing him down. I hope he doesn't lose any of that because he's getting smaller. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?

7th March 2007, 13:18	#20
farns	Yeah hes strong and needs a bit of beef but he looked flat-out unfit last time I saw him play, hes a bit of a porker so prolly needs to train extra-hard. He was great a coupla years ago and hopefully this camp will get him firing again, TBH Im sad that Justin Marshall left, his strength and attitude helped us beat the Lions and he was playing better than Kelleher before he left for UK. He might possibly be starting to get on a bit now, plus playing in that inferior comp cant be great for keeping sharp.

7th March 2007, 17:47	#22
Ezekiel 25:17	Tequiri is getting those offers from league though isn't he? It depends on the length of the contract too. I don;t know the details of either so I can't really comment further

7th March 2007, 23:45	#23
caffiend	I saw Jason Eaton, Reuben Thorne and Greg Somerville walking out of the Intercontinental in Wellington this afternoon. Not having much of a frame of reference except for TV games it was hard to compare, but Eaton sure is a big bastard. Thorne's about 6'4" and 107kg, but I'm 6'2" and 105kg, so he didn't seem too big - but Eaton at 6'7" and now probably somewhere around 112kg* was frickin' huge. * The difference being they're lean muscle and I'm... errr... not. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?

8th March 2007, 11:12	#24
Ezekiel 25:17	Jeez a 112 you reckon? That is huge! I remember seeing Joe Roko in person once. He always seemed a slim build on the game compared to everyone else but in person compared to normal people he is built solid.

8th March 2007, 19:07	#27
CCS Stunt Pants	I guess Jack just isn't a greedy guy.

14th March 2007, 13:29	#29
Ezekiel 25:17	well thems the risks i guess. There is a good chance that had they have played the first 7 rounds of super 14 a few of them atleast would have come away with injuries.

14th March 2007, 14:43	#30
caffiend	True - but that's going to be 14 weeks playing time that Muliaina is going to miss. He should be back for Tri-Nations/Bledisloe, but given he'll have to keep off his ankle he may not be able to keep up the conditioning he's just worked so hard to get, and he'll be missing game time. Let's just hope these are unrelated to not having game time and random as you mention... __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days? Last edited by caffiend : 14th March 2007 at 14:45.

25th March 2007, 13:14	#32
Ezekiel 25:17	Mils apparently had a fracture in his foot. That is why it broke. The doctor said it was always going to break. However if he had have played the whole season he would have broke it at the start and be returning about now... o the irony!

3rd April 2007, 00:30	#33
caffiend	So, injuries now to: - Dan Carter - Chris Jack - Mils Muliaina - Joe Rokocoko - Luke McAlister Varying, of course, and most only enough to cause a sit-out of 1 or 2 games. But just... interesting. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?

12th April 2007, 18:05	#34
caffiend	+ James Ryan Still just coincidence? __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?

12th April 2007, 18:54	#35
blynk	Oh well, we still got Ali Williams, Troy Flavell, the cheifs guy (forgot his name), Ross Filipo?

15th April 2007, 12:59	#36
caffiend	Carl Hayman signs for Newcastle: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4026964a1823.html __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?