Four years on...

Ab · 11th July 2007, 20:28

...and the All Blacks are STILL in a fucking mess at centre and fullback. Sweet zombie jesus. What the fuck? How could we have made it all the way to 2007 and not have that shit sorted out?

Sp0nge · 11th July 2007, 20:35

DON'T PANIC!

...at least now they have Henry.

vorlon · 12th July 2007, 11:46

With Centre I agree. I reckon we are ok at fullback.

However the biggest problem is at lock I reckon..

xor · 12th July 2007, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by vorlon

With Centre I agree. I reckon we are ok at fullback.

However the biggest problem is at lock I reckon..

With monsters like Troy Flavell and Thorne?
Eatan should be back soon and Williams jaw should be sweet also.

All black forward pack = monsters!

Ab · 12th July 2007, 12:50

The problems at lock were unforseeable -- the injuries to Eaton, Ryan, and Williams were just accidents. And it's not like NZ has a shortage of quality loosies.

But the fullback/centre problem was glaringly obvious back in 2003. And it's still not fixed.

Furry Crew · 12th July 2007, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

The problems at lock were unforseeable -- the injuries to Eaton, Ryan, and Williams were just accidents. And it's not like NZ has a shortage of quality loosies.

But the fullback/centre problem was glaringly obvious back in 2003. And it's still not fixed.

Bring Back Tana

Problem Solved :-P

Ard Righ · 12th July 2007, 13:09

The coaches admitted as much, when they commented they needed to give Evans more game time at fullback, and let Carter take over first-five.

NZ has a bad tendency to develop utilities, rather than specialists. The All Blacks coaches and the S14 coaches aren't helping much by not sticking with developing players in positions.
And let's not forget the 'stars' like Nonu who have failed oh so miserably at proving they have 'natural talent'.

With a fit Conrad Smith at centre, Mils as a more solid for fullback. Mils is less likely to get knocked out cold like McDonald likes to do with his poor tackling technique.

Russian · 12th July 2007, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ard Righ

And let's not forget the 'stars' like Mauger who have failed oh so miserably at proving they have 'any talent'.

Fixed it for you!

Ab · 12th July 2007, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ard Righ

Mils is less likely to get knocked out cold like McDonald likes to do with his poor tackling technique.

That's because when Mils tries to make a tackle he doesn't even touch the opposition player. At least, not for the past two seasons. It's like he's forgotten how to tackle.

Phrack · 12th July 2007, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ard Righ

And let's not forget the 'stars' like Nonu who have failed oh so miserably at proving they have 'natural talent'.

I think he could win us the world cup. When he focus's on running/catching and not on abusing the touchies, he's a more destructive force than the other centres we have. Plus, he would only drop the ball as much as Toeava does.

Maybe we should make some developing centres play league. Wasn't it Umaga who couldn't tackle so was told to play league for a bit?

Ard Righ · 12th July 2007, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phrack

I think he could win us the world cup. When he focus's on running/catching and not on abusing the touchies, he's a more destructive force than the other centres we have. Plus, he would only drop the ball as much as Toeava does.

Maybe we should make some developing centres play league. Wasn't it Umaga who couldn't tackle so was told to play league for a bit?

There's zero point in making the biggest bust in the opposition backline if you fumble the ball and lose possesion the instant you get a finger laid upon you. Sadly ball control is something Nonu hasn't learned at all.

League might be a good thing for him. Nonu was considering the 'All Golds' game for the NZRL, but personally I think he needs some NFL practice running through a line, and using his arm to cover the ball :P

As for Mils not tackling, I can't remember the last game he played, or the last tackle he missed, but I doubt we've had a fullback that covered as well as Cullen did.

Rocket · 12th July 2007, 16:09

rarr de rarrr

Ab · 12th July 2007, 16:12

^^ too true re: Cullen.

Nonu? Don't make me laugh. My comments in another thread:

Quote:

Nonu can perform multiple roles -- letting in tries because his defense sucks, and letting in tries because he's been sinbinned for shoulder charges and high tackles.

(On attack) Nonu runs with the ball as if it was a grenade that could only be defused in the in-goal area. The moment realisation dawns upon him that he isn't personally going to cross the line, he just throws the ball away in a random direction.

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how we need a centre who can make big hit-ups. What we need is a centre who can catch the ball, beat his own man, and pass the ball quickly in a controlled manner so that the winger can catch the fucking thing. However, that's SCHOOLBOY stuff and so doesn't even need to be said. What we really need is a centre who can negate the opposing centre. We need a centre who can TACKLE FUCKING STIRLING MORTLOCK.

That's it. The "are you the All Blacks centre" eligibility test should be:

Q: will Stirling Mortlock run past you in a NZ-AU match?

If you answered "yes" to the above question, go away.

That's it.

yaksman · 12th July 2007, 16:47

I don't post too often when it comes to sport, but my fondest memories (aside from my own self-achievements, gloat) are of the AB's. I remember my dad waking me up in the wee small hours to watch the footy with a couple of pieces of toast in hand when I was 4 or 5. I have both played Rugby and been coached by some of the best (including John Hart). I believe I have a pretty good grip on the game, so I'll post these opinions for ya'all to debate. If it's of any consolation, I've repped NZ Sec Schools in Soccer, Wellington in Atheletics, Hutt Valley in Soccer and Badmintion and had a dabble succesfully in plenty of other sports - Tennis, swimming, cross country to name a few. I think I have a pretty good idea of "how sports works".

Forgive my spelling in advance. These are mainly things as they come to mind.

Drop McAllistar. He is crap with a capital K. He is slow, cumbersome, kicks far too often and makes poor decisions. Carlos Spencer V2.

Get Evans or Smith in there, ASAP, after +5-10kg of muscle and lots of fitness work.

Forwards = ok in my books. Soialo is a bit iffy - can be stunning or mediocre. Collins = best in his position, if a little 'rigid' in his role. Our lineouts it seems have been simplified a lot with sorting all the calls out before the throw in which = win. Our lock problem is concerning but Ross is a mate of mine and he can do it! Ok, not a convincing argument but hey, if you aint got the locks to spare, change the 'plan'. Scrum = best there is.

Half Back = I still think Kelleher is the best here, Wepu is like another forward but we need agility and speed here.

Team Tactics = not so good. When it all goes pear-shaped we forget how to pay slow, tight, positive rugby. Instead we look for new plan after new technique and just fuck it up - this is how Australia will always beat us - make us change our 'plans'. That, and they just keep the ball in hand - even if they lose 20 meters. Time without ball is just as an important winning tactic as scoring points - the other team can't score if they don't have the pill. I also think that a lot of the players have had their natural rugby instincts taught out of them. Too many proceedures and systems mean that a player is thinking about what system to keep up with / employ / utilise next, rather than just playing Rugby. "Hey he reached over to grab the ball, we weren't taught how to counter that so I'll just look st00pid standing here as he runs down the wing" rather than "get the fuck off my ball".

We have by far the best attacking team in the world. And I would argue easily the best defence when we are on our game (plan). Throw a spanner into the works (injury in a key position, an opposing team drastically upsetting the 'plans and systems') and we drop to about 3rd or 4th in the world IMHO.

Our wings = average. I think Gear is the best of the bunch by a mile, and I think Sivivatu is the second. Joe makes me cringe every time he recieves the ball (is he or isn't he going to do a spin?). Doug left his purse somewhere

The rest of the positions - I don't really have too many concerns. Mils is a bit like Rodney (on or nearly off depending on the wind direction or hair-cut part), Carter is dependable (heck if we lose the Tri and Bled this year I won't give a shit if Carter is crap, so long as he's normal in the WC!).

I think to win the WC we have to do a few things

1) Remember, above all, how to play simple footy. How to hold the pill, when to kick, when to settle, when to build.
2) Slow the game down rather than rush head long into another ruck time after time. Reset, re-think. There's 80 minutes - do you need to clear the ball RIGHT NOW!?
3) Get desperate, in a controlled way. Oz will be our biggest problem in the WC if we face 'em because they leave nothing on the field. If we fail it's going to have more to do with failed plans, systems and player rotation, rather than a lack of trying (that means, we won't leave the pitch exhausted and elated - we'll just blame a system rather than ourselves).

Thoughts?

vorlon · 12th July 2007, 17:15

I like some of the comments you put up yaksman, especially around team tactics & 3 points you raised around winning the WC.

However I dis-agree on McAlister being crap - but agree on Carlos V2 tho.

On forwards front, I believe Soialo is the best no# 8 in the country, with Mose Tuiali'i being 2nd... only just though. Thought he had a great Super 14 & was un-lucky to *not* be in the squad.

On the halfback position, right now Kelleher is no# 1. I'm not a big fan of his, but his form of late has been very good. Probably the best I've ever seen him play. Wipi has lost his 'x-factor' ever since he got selected for the all blacks.. he need s to re-capture that form again.

xor · 12th July 2007, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaksman

Dribble

You sound like a fucken homo!
Nobody cares if you represented your local hick high school in soccer or dabbled in a spot of tennis.

This thread is about RUGBY!

Ab · 12th July 2007, 17:35

Right now the best first five in the country is Nick Evans, with Luke McAlister and Daniel Carter jockeying for second place.

caffiend · 20th July 2007, 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Eatan should be back soon.

Yeah? I thought he was out for the whole season?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Daniel Carter jockeying for second place.

Pun intended?

11th July 2007, 20:28	#1
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Four years on... ...and the All Blacks are STILL in a fucking mess at centre and fullback. Sweet zombie jesus. What the fuck? How could we have made it all the way to 2007 and not have that shit sorted out?

11th July 2007, 20:35	#2
Sp0nge	DON'T PANIC! ...at least now they have Henry. __________________ '[]' []-[] [] []\[] []<

12th July 2007, 11:46	#3
vorlon	With Centre I agree. I reckon we are ok at fullback. However the biggest problem is at lock I reckon.. __________________ I've always been here

12th July 2007, 12:50	#5
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	The problems at lock were unforseeable -- the injuries to Eaton, Ryan, and Williams were just accidents. And it's not like NZ has a shortage of quality loosies. But the fullback/centre problem was glaringly obvious back in 2003. And it's still not fixed.

12th July 2007, 13:09	#7
Ard Righ	The coaches admitted as much, when they commented they needed to give Evans more game time at fullback, and let Carter take over first-five. NZ has a bad tendency to develop utilities, rather than specialists. The All Blacks coaches and the S14 coaches aren't helping much by not sticking with developing players in positions. And let's not forget the 'stars' like Nonu who have failed oh so miserably at proving they have 'natural talent'. With a fit Conrad Smith at centre, Mils as a more solid for fullback. Mils is less likely to get knocked out cold like McDonald likes to do with his poor tackling technique.

12th July 2007, 16:09	#12
Rocket	rarr de rarrr Last edited by Rocket : 12th July 2007 at 16:11.

12th July 2007, 16:47	#14
yaksman	I don't post too often when it comes to sport, but my fondest memories (aside from my own self-achievements, gloat) are of the AB's. I remember my dad waking me up in the wee small hours to watch the footy with a couple of pieces of toast in hand when I was 4 or 5. I have both played Rugby and been coached by some of the best (including John Hart). I believe I have a pretty good grip on the game, so I'll post these opinions for ya'all to debate. If it's of any consolation, I've repped NZ Sec Schools in Soccer, Wellington in Atheletics, Hutt Valley in Soccer and Badmintion and had a dabble succesfully in plenty of other sports - Tennis, swimming, cross country to name a few. I think I have a pretty good idea of "how sports works". Forgive my spelling in advance. These are mainly things as they come to mind. Drop McAllistar. He is crap with a capital K. He is slow, cumbersome, kicks far too often and makes poor decisions. Carlos Spencer V2. Get Evans or Smith in there, ASAP, after +5-10kg of muscle and lots of fitness work. Forwards = ok in my books. Soialo is a bit iffy - can be stunning or mediocre. Collins = best in his position, if a little 'rigid' in his role. Our lineouts it seems have been simplified a lot with sorting all the calls out before the throw in which = win. Our lock problem is concerning but Ross is a mate of mine and he can do it! Ok, not a convincing argument but hey, if you aint got the locks to spare, change the 'plan'. Scrum = best there is. Half Back = I still think Kelleher is the best here, Wepu is like another forward but we need agility and speed here. Team Tactics = not so good. When it all goes pear-shaped we forget how to pay slow, tight, positive rugby. Instead we look for new plan after new technique and just fuck it up - this is how Australia will always beat us - make us change our 'plans'. That, and they just keep the ball in hand - even if they lose 20 meters. Time without ball is just as an important winning tactic as scoring points - the other team can't score if they don't have the pill. I also think that a lot of the players have had their natural rugby instincts taught out of them. Too many proceedures and systems mean that a player is thinking about what system to keep up with / employ / utilise next, rather than just playing Rugby. "Hey he reached over to grab the ball, we weren't taught how to counter that so I'll just look st00pid standing here as he runs down the wing" rather than "get the fuck off my ball". We have by far the best attacking team in the world. And I would argue easily the best defence when we are on our game (plan). Throw a spanner into the works (injury in a key position, an opposing team drastically upsetting the 'plans and systems') and we drop to about 3rd or 4th in the world IMHO. Our wings = average. I think Gear is the best of the bunch by a mile, and I think Sivivatu is the second. Joe makes me cringe every time he recieves the ball (is he or isn't he going to do a spin?). Doug left his purse somewhere The rest of the positions - I don't really have too many concerns. Mils is a bit like Rodney (on or nearly off depending on the wind direction or hair-cut part), Carter is dependable (heck if we lose the Tri and Bled this year I won't give a shit if Carter is crap, so long as he's normal in the WC!). I think to win the WC we have to do a few things 1) Remember, above all, how to play simple footy. How to hold the pill, when to kick, when to settle, when to build. 2) Slow the game down rather than rush head long into another ruck time after time. Reset, re-think. There's 80 minutes - do you need to clear the ball RIGHT NOW!? 3) Get desperate, in a controlled way. Oz will be our biggest problem in the WC if we face 'em because they leave nothing on the field. If we fail it's going to have more to do with failed plans, systems and player rotation, rather than a lack of trying (that means, we won't leave the pitch exhausted and elated - we'll just blame a system rather than ourselves). Thoughts? __________________ What the hell is Jun

12th July 2007, 17:15	#15
vorlon	I like some of the comments you put up yaksman, especially around team tactics & 3 points you raised around winning the WC. However I dis-agree on McAlister being crap - but agree on Carlos V2 tho. On forwards front, I believe Soialo is the best no# 8 in the country, with Mose Tuiali'i being 2nd... only just though. Thought he had a great Super 14 & was un-lucky to not be in the squad. On the halfback position, right now Kelleher is no# 1. I'm not a big fan of his, but his form of late has been very good. Probably the best I've ever seen him play. Wipi has lost his 'x-factor' ever since he got selected for the all blacks.. he need s to re-capture that form again. __________________ I've always been here

12th July 2007, 17:35	#17
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Right now the best first five in the country is Nick Evans, with Luke McAlister and Daniel Carter jockeying for second place.