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31st July 2014, 15:56 | #41 |
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more blind outrage . . .
Why ACT always needs to play the race card All other things being equal... except they aren't
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
31st July 2014, 16:30 | #42 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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The thing is nobody wants ACT to be a classically-liberal individual-rights party. Righties want it to be a Conservative party, rednecks want it to be a racist party, and the lefties want it to be a conservative racist party because then they can be outraged by it. So you've got this classically-liberal leader talking individual rights and everyone loses their minds over what they WANT HIM TO HAVE SAID rather than what he did.
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31st July 2014, 17:13 | #43 |
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It's funny, really. When the whole incest comments went down, people lost their shit. To a somewhat sly question, he gave an answer which was philosophical and libertarian and people took it as an out and out political statement. Despite Whyte saying that he personally found incest distasteful, people wanted so badly so be outraged that they took it as Whyte floating a state-sanctioned endorsement of fucking your sister.
Same deal here. People are calling Act's statement 'desperate' when in fact (I'm rather certain) Act has been against things like Maori seats from day one. It's hardly a policy they've come up with out of the blue because they're polling poorly. It's no more desperate than the policies of any other small party. It's a shame that Act can't have a discussion about race based policies without accusations of desperation or racism.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
31st July 2014, 17:16 | #44 | |
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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31st July 2014, 17:35 | #45 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Of all the independent clauses in that post, which one is "that"?
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31st July 2014, 19:15 | #46 |
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I was referring to a more nebulous "that", whatever underlying story you have generating those absolute statements. Whatever compels you to make complex reality simplistic.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
31st July 2014, 19:54 | #47 |
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The pot would like a word.
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31st July 2014, 20:00 | #48 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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31st July 2014, 23:49 | #49 |
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The Maori "nation" was never suppose to be completely dissolved into the the Crown. It was suppose to remain partially autonomous. Therefore the issue is not one of race, but of nationalism. The mere act of calling these issues "race based" is racist, and saying that the Maori seats should be removed when you're rich and white is a bit like an American saying NZ should become the next state to join the USA against the will of the NZ people.
The thing is, in principle, I actually agree that there shouldn't be Maori seats. There shouldn't be a NEED for the Maori seats, but there is. There's a thin line between nationalism and racism, and creating a one world administration that protects people's right to self-determination seems like a fantastic idea. But it's an idea that people need to judge and adopt for themselves, and such an idea needs to be backed up with the practical considerations necessary to make it work. The major practical consideration highlighted here is the level of understand that people in a socially privileged position have of the issues working against this idea. That understanding is so woefully inadequate that there simply won't be any motivation for oppressed peoples to amalgamate any representation that they have, which should be entirely understandable. If and when idiots like Whyte finally understand just how racist their views are, and see the massive intellectual blind spots and double standards inherent in their own outlook, then perhaps we can have an honest discussion. But until then, I would advise people who lack privileges to use any and all means to maintain and enhance what influence they have. Last edited by adonis : 31st July 2014 at 23:51. |
1st August 2014, 09:03 | #50 |
Love, Actuary
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As the world is cut by different dimensions just about everyone will be able to find something that seems unfair to them. For some it's their income tax contribution. For some others it will be lack of access to opportunities afforded to others.
My preference is for equal opportunity and the essay seems very reasonable to me. On the other hand I don't care particularly. The policies adopted by NZ here do by and large target the right people i.e. the poor with little chance of escape from that situation (for lots of reasons). Yes there is some collateral damage - some people miss out and some are able to rort the system. I'm not sure an alternative approach could do better in any absolute sense. Any set of criteria by which a judgment could be made will be subjective with no chance of everyone agreeing on what the criteria should be. Those who hold dear the ideas of USA-style individual accountability will resonate with Act's position. Those with say a Danish-style view will think differently. Most in both camps won't realise their views are impossibly biased based on their environment. This is what it is. There is no chance of it being changed. Act is simply reminding a segment of the electorate that they're the party to vote for if this stuff floats your boat. Every hundredth person or so cares and Act needs these folk to remember to vote for them since that's their only chance of coat-tailing others in on their Epsom free ride. |
1st August 2014, 09:44 | #51 |
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Isn't it interesting how people's answer to stuff like the socio economic issues we face is limp wristed policies designed to "guide" them towards a better path.
Like the way both parties are constantly increasing the tax on smoking could be construed as unfair on Maori, as a larger percentage of Maori(44%) smoke than non-Maori(18%) in New Zealand. They're trying to make it more difficult to smoke because smoking is bad. But, isn't levying what could be a fixed number extra tax against Maori who are generally also in poorer socio economic situations unfair? smoking could even be construed as part of their culture now (not that anyone in politics would be willing to say that, lol) and we're trying to erode it.
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Weak hearts I rip. |
1st August 2014, 14:37 | #52 | ||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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1st August 2014, 14:41 | #53 | |
Mmm... Sacrilicious
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I think the people saying it's "racist" should go look up the dictionary meaning again. Arguing for the elimination of considerations of race is not racist. Personally I'm not overly fussed by Maori Seats and think they possibly have some weight given the ToW but the other bollocks can go jump and really both just immediately set up an "us and them" situation which I don't believe is helpful in the least. Has the existance of the quotas and easy-ins etc had ANY appreciable impact on the numbers of maori in poverty/crime/etc statistics? I suspect not. I would much rather we ditched all of the race-based stuff and concentrate on REALLY helping ALL people stuck in the poverty-crime-etc-go-round. How? I don't know but I'm confident it wouldn't require race-based policies. On a semi-related matter I would actually like to see all our officially recognised languages mandatorily taught at school to a certain level. What's the point of having an official language if only a tiny smattering of people actually speak it? Danish kids learn multiple languages with no problems so I can't see how it couldn't work here. |
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1st August 2014, 14:56 | #54 | |
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Your statement is blatantly racist. Perpetuating ignorance of this kind promotes attitudes that harm Maori - actually any minority or oppressed segment of society. Racism can be more than simply making generalisations about people based on their looks or other attributes, in this case it's the reinforcement of systemic oppression. |
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1st August 2014, 15:06 | #55 | |
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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1st August 2014, 15:34 | #56 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Note: TERMS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE
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1st August 2014, 15:48 | #57 |
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Calling people racist kinda Godwin's this thread.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
1st August 2014, 15:52 | #58 |
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I don't think anyone is calling anyone racist, but rather calling statements or views racist. Maybe they are, I don't intend to.
Racism is a complex, destructive phenomena in our society, we benefit from grappling with it.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
1st August 2014, 16:08 | #59 | ||
Mmm... Sacrilicious
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And you've confirmed that lower grades are required. Frankly I don't know the details but am aware that there are such policies in place and apparently for other groups too (perhaps someone can expand on that or provide a link). I don't think there should be any special considerations made that are based on who your father was. If you're going to apply something then use a race-neutral modifier, like what decile your school was or something. Quote:
Anyway, I've said my bit and this isn't going anywhere so meh. |
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1st August 2014, 16:13 | #60 | |
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You should stick around though Spoon1, it's a good discussion to have, even if it's not pleasant.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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1st August 2014, 17:17 | #61 | ||
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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1st August 2014, 18:00 | #62 | ||||
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How about showing some outrage at the fact that Maori are unfairly treated by the justice system? Racism there is well documented, but you'd rather whine about Maori being given the chance to become doctors. Quote:
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1st August 2014, 18:02 | #63 |
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How about this? I avoided going to a public school, I went to a very expensive private school with the best facilities money can buy.
I got privileges 'cause my parents could afford that, my lineage payed for that. Where's your outrage over that? |
2nd August 2014, 02:57 | #64 | |
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Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية |
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2nd August 2014, 03:49 | #65 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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My daughter has rights in Australia because she is an Australian citizen. Those rights have nothing to do with her ethnicity. Interestingly enough she is not yet a New Zealand citizen, since we haven't filed the paperwork. But - and here's the relevant bit - even without citizenship she is legally entitled to certain things in New Zealand because she is Maori, things that a 5th-generation New Zealander, born and bred in New Zealand but of non-Maori descent, is not. Now my household ain't rich but the description "semi-comfortably middle-class" is probably pretty appropriate. Right now, having been to NZ twice in her life and being neither an NZ citizen nor even a resident, my daughter can get off a plane and instantly be eligible for all kinds of consideration that is not available to a poor kid born in NZ to non-Maori parents who could really fucking use some help. Is that fair? |
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2nd August 2014, 08:19 | #66 | |
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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2nd August 2014, 15:53 | #67 | ||
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Tell all those "boat people" who are being locked up by the Australian government that their lineage isn't a factor in how they're treated. Regardless of how you spin it, her rights were given to her because of where she comes from and who her family is. Quote:
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2nd August 2014, 16:17 | #68 |
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Edit: nevermind
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2nd August 2014, 16:55 | #69 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Edit update: unless you're speaking in the strict sense of citizenship being something that one can become eligible for if one is the child of an existing citizen. In that sense I concede, lineage and citizenship can be connected. |
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2nd August 2014, 22:45 | #70 | |
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Out of all the commentary owning Whyte in the last few days; this is my favorite - The crybaby philosopher
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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5th August 2014, 17:33 | #71 |
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jamie face to face on his nonsense.
oh my god. http://www.maoritelevision.com/news/...ie-whyte-panel
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"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way." |
5th August 2014, 18:09 | #72 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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TLDR, what were the lowlights?
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5th August 2014, 19:26 | #73 |
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the whole seven minutes.
jamie acted as if he had given his chosen topic about as much thought as i might some flip comment at a dinner party. didn't seem to realize that there would be an actual,committed journalist asking him questions requiring grown up answers and thinking. funny, when jamie first came on the scene i was concerned...'an actual man of learning,mebbe with some good points for the "libertarians"-whoops.' not worried any more.
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"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way." |
5th August 2014, 19:36 | #74 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Mihingarangi Forbes is a) hot, which is either irrelevant or a cunning part of the fact that she is b) NZ's best interrogative journalist. She somehow has the knack of getting her guests to buttfuck themselves without them knowing they're doing it.
Edit update: imagine her moderating the leaders' debate. That would own. |
5th August 2014, 19:56 | #75 | |
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6th August 2014, 20:34 | #76 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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6th August 2014, 20:37 | #77 | |
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ms forbes really struggled not to visibly sneer about that point.
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"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way." |
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7th August 2014, 16:50 | #78 | |
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Good on this guy:
Act candidate quits over leader's speech 'stunt' Quote:
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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7th August 2014, 20:42 | #79 |
Love, Actuary
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I don't know what whanau ora is. I'm not ashamed of this either.
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7th August 2014, 20:44 | #80 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Yes, but you're not the leader of a political party that has taken a rather dogmatic approach to race-based government policy.
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