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Old 17th November 2022, 12:57     #1881
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Of course it is, it's fucking stupid and pathetic.

Not ignoring there is a link between capitalism and global warming. I'd agree 100% with that.

But linking that back to colonisation is so myopic it hurts.

You gonna tell me that China has zero emissions?
How about Russia?

If you use that kind of bleeding heart ideology, literally everything can be 'causally linked' to colonisation. Perfect for victimhood.

Not arguing against some of what the guy says, but hedging it causally is stupid. It's a tangential issue.

If he were to talk about industrialisation instead of colonisation, then I would have some respect for him.
Anything else just comes across as indoctrinated agenda pushing. And I'm not right wing. I don't throw those words around like memes.
The discussion goes a lot differently in a room of academics. (I get academia bores you.)

Blame and victimhood are really about politics, justifying who gets what resources, which becomes ever more acute as inequality escalates.

That's what I see your reaction is about. It's not a reaction that's unique to you, it's all been said before.

And that does leak out of these discussions, but what's being worked out is the more fundamental nature of our society. It's not just cause that "literally everything can be 'causally linked' to colonisation", there is significance to this, significance that bears consideration in less shrill contexts.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 17th November 2022 at 12:59.
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Old 17th November 2022, 13:11     #1882
_indigo1
 
Piss off lightspeed.
You don't know anything about me, what I believe, what bores me, or even if I am an academic or not.
Your grandstanding and pontification are seen exactly as what they are.

The way you hedge your comments against others as being somehow from an academic point of view that elevates you above ignorance that you are intimating exists in other parties says all anyone needs to know about you.

The added snark just cements it.
You go on about others going for their dopamine squirt from questionable sources, yet you literally pervade it in your self stimming replies.

Go ahead - do it again, reply again with the same "those more enlightened than the plebs, including you, see it differently" canned response wrapped in smug pontification.
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Old 17th November 2022, 13:12     #1883
Lightspeed
 
I'm only responding to what you're saying.

You got some weird ideas about me. Grandstanding, pontificating?

When did you start reading NZG? lololz

Fucking grow up.
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Old 17th November 2022, 13:28     #1884
_indigo1
 
So your first stab - an appeal to academic authority - doesn't work.
You get called out on it, so the best you can do next is stoop to devaluing what I say by calling my 'ideas about you' weird or invalid somehow.

Sit the fuck down dude.
You're a broken record on this shit.
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Old 17th November 2022, 13:51     #1885
Lightspeed
 
I'm telling you what I know. You previously complained about me referring to academia. I was just trying to pre-empt us rehashing that, but I realise instead you're all triggered.

Does anyone want to let indigo know the last time I sat the fuck down when someone asked? 😄 They're obviously not a regular reader of the forum.

Whining on about victimhood, you're so cringe.
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Old 17th November 2022, 14:31     #1886
_indigo1
 
Nope. Not triggered.
Just calling a spade a spade.

Last edited by _indigo1 : 17th November 2022 at 14:32.
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Old 17th November 2022, 14:50     #1887
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The discussion goes a lot differently in a room of academics. (I get academia bores you.).
Don't worry, it won't be long til academia gets called out for being the heart of colonisation and all those who are part of that system are sent away for re-education.

Terrible racist colonial academic institutions!
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Old 17th November 2022, 14:56     #1888
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Tell us you have no idea what goes on in academia without telling us you have no idea what goes on in academia.

I mean, at least the circles I've moved in (which is only a small subset of what's out there) academia calls itself out on its own colonial heritage.

Oh noes, life is complex and hard, not obvious and simple! What to do?!?!

lolololz
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 17th November 2022 at 14:57.
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:01     #1889
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
What to do?!?!lolololz
They clearly need to be decolonized and shut down. Any other option is racist and those who work there are racist and need to be re-educated.
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:19     #1890
Lightspeed
 
Why you gotta misrepresent so hard?
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:23     #1891
xor
 
Because that's the game the illiberal liberals play.
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:36     #1892
Lightspeed
 
I don't know who those people are, but they don't represent the majority of people doing the work I'm talking about.

I'm sure you can find examples, but what can't you find examples of on the Internet?
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:52     #1893
xor
 
This entire thread has examples, l2 scroll
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:59     #1894
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Of course it is, it's fucking stupid and pathetic.

Not ignoring there is a link between capitalism and global warming. I'd agree 100% with that.

But linking that back to colonisation is so myopic it hurts.

You gonna tell me that China has zero emissions?
How about Russia?

If you use that kind of bleeding heart ideology, literally everything can be 'causally linked' to colonisation. Perfect for victimhood.

Not arguing against some of what the guy says, but hedging it causally is stupid. It's a tangential issue.

If he were to talk about industrialisation instead of colonisation, then I would have some respect for him.
Anything else just comes across as indoctrinated agenda pushing. And I'm not right wing. I don't throw those words around like memes.
You've missed half the point. Yes industrialization & exploitation of indigenous resources is part of it but he's also talking about modern efforts to reduce global warming. Indigenous groups aren't at the table, their decision making power & their ideologies about the world have largely been suppressed through the colonisation process. (Not to sidetrack but 3 waters proposed to give Maori more of a say in managing their resources & people lost their shit.)
From the recent IPCC report that reignited the conversation.

Quote:
"Colonialism can inhibit the development of robust climate adaptation strategies, and exacerbate climate risks (very high confidence)."

"The legacy of colonialism and historical patterns of development will continue to shape the adaptation responses and resiliency of Indigenous Peoples (Todd, 2015; Davis and Todd, 2017; Whyte, 37 2017; Cameron et al., 2019)."
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/r...ne-statements/
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Old 17th November 2022, 16:11     #1895
_indigo1
 
Thanks for replying to the content.

Yes I agree with the part about pushing back on industrialist ideology with more ecocentric/nature-centric ideology which happens to be indigenous - or said another way, leveraging indigenous heritage we have a weapon to fight back against industrialist pressure.

But I introduced the industrial aspect. The word used in the article was colonisation - and I disagree with it for the reasons I outlined - colonisation and industrialisation are different.

It is not the colonisation that has caused the problem. It is industrialisation. That those are also colonial is coincidental in our country.

Trying to conflate the two smacks of agenda injection.
It's the same nonsense as intimating that science is a tool of western colonisation - it conveniently leaves out facts about the wider world that disproves it for the sake of pushing an ideology.

Last edited by _indigo1 : 17th November 2022 at 16:12.
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Old 17th November 2022, 16:23     #1896
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Climate change is really just one manifestation of colonialism or an intensification of the environmental impacts of colonisation.

“The ecocidal logics that now govern our world are not inevitable or human nature but are the result of a series of decisions that have their origins and reverberation in the process of colonisation.

“The accepted values and norms of the dominant global political forces that are really driving the ecological destruction that we see are not natural or inevitable but are a particular cultural phenomenon.
This is the bait and switch. This is the myopic part.

Sure colonisation spread industrialism and an ecotoxic culture to SOME parts of the world.

But that is coincidental not causal, and it conveniently leaves out the large swaths of the world that suffer the same issues but were never colonised, at least in the narrow definition of colonisation that is being used mostly these days.
Examples I already gave are China and Russia/USSR.
Much of Europe. Etc etc.

Of course if you want to argue that technically all of the world is that way due to colonisation at one point, then that dismantles the entire argument because you are saying that the act of migration is what has caused climate change in one manifestation - which is like - well yeah, duh?
Once you get into that argument, then none of us are indigenous.

Last edited by _indigo1 : 17th November 2022 at 16:26.
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Old 17th November 2022, 16:32     #1897
_indigo1
 
"Colonisation has suppressed indigenous ideology that can help us reign in the damaging, climate changing, ecocidal ideology of industrialisation" ✔

"Climate change is a manifestation of colonisation due to dominant capitalism values"❌

Last edited by _indigo1 : 17th November 2022 at 16:34.
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Old 17th November 2022, 16:54     #1898
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
This entire thread has examples, l2 scroll
I seen it. I seen the crappy sources y'all stoop to.
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Old 17th November 2022, 18:50     #1899
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty, saved more people from starvation and disease and misery, than any other force in the history of the world.
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Old 17th November 2022, 19:02     #1900
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, it's wonderful being on the right end of that equation. The other end, not so much.

The climate, the genetic diversity of the planet, the exploited and enslaved, a stable future. All worthy sacrifices I suppose.
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Old 17th November 2022, 19:37     #1901
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty, saved more people from starvation and disease and misery, than any other force in the history of the world.
Capitalism got us to where we are now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The climate, the genetic diversity of the planet, the exploited and enslaved, a stable future.
Capitalism got us to where we are now.
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Old 17th November 2022, 23:44     #1902
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
As far as human happiness and wellbeing is concerned, this is the best world that has ever existed. There has never been a better time to be born than right now. If this is the world that capitalism has made, it's fucking awesome compared to every previous version of the world.
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Old 18th November 2022, 00:00     #1903
Lightspeed
 
It's a pretty useless story to tell tho, to those enduring deprivation, or just worried about the survival of the species.

That's without considering how humans being the social, competitive creatures we are, it doesn't matter how much better things are if there are stark disparities amongst us.
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Old 18th November 2022, 06:46     #1904
fixed_truth
 
^Yep that's a glaring hole in the Rational Optimist. Industrial capitalism is not organised to meet the needs of the people who participate in it, rather it allows individuals to complete with one another in order to maximize personal wealth. Which does have it's pros but as L.S said earlier do it's cons outweigh them?

Because if a very small portion of the population managed to take most of the wealth for itself or if hundreds of millions of people don't have food, shelter or healthcare, or if infrastructure, schools & hospitals are falling apart or if the planet and other species are being destroyed - none of this is a sign that the system is failing, it's simply operating as it was designed to do so.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 18th November 2022 at 06:47.
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Old 18th November 2022, 08:57     #1905
xor
 
Yet all people benefit from the advancements provided by industrious individuals.
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Old 18th November 2022, 10:32     #1906
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past twenty years than in all of the rest of human history. The infant mortality rate is the lowest ever recorded. The literacy rate is the highest ever. The percentage of the world’s population that lives in democratic countries is the highest ever. The percentage of the world’s population that has access to clean water and electric power is the highest ever.

Burn capitalism
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Old 18th November 2022, 10:43     #1907
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
There has never been a better time to be born than right now.
I think this could be either disputed or defended depending on the way you're measuring "better". I personally think the 1940-1980s cohort got the best deal in many ways, and I actually feel sorry for kids growing up these days and I wouldn't want to be in their position. I don't really envy the surveillance state, monopolistic mega-corps, wealth inequality, instant gratification/impatience, and disconnect from nature that modern capitalist society has delivered.

I'm definitely pro-capitalism in theory, but the implementation of capitalism we have today definitely has its flaws - things like government regulations and control of the money supply are two obvious "corruptions" to pure capitalism which haven't always made things "better". America is both the wealthiest country in the world, and the most indebted - at the same time. Much like socialism, capitalism is great in theory, but human nature manages to spoil it. We also have aspects of socialism in our lives too, so it's not an argument of one vs the other. We have both at the same time, with pros and cons of both systems being apparent. As such, neither can be realised "properly", so we've got a hodge-podge ever evolving system, with no guarantee that things have or will improve linearly over time.
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Old 18th November 2022, 10:53     #1908
fixed_truth
 
@AB
Um yeah we've already been over a few times that capitalism has produced some positive outcomes so no need for shadow boxing.

Whether the huge negative outcomes are justified or unavoidable are legitimate questions.

There are examples of mixed-economies and systems that lean towards socialism which have positive outcomes but with less negative outcomes.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 18th November 2022 at 10:54.
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Old 18th November 2022, 12:01     #1909
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
To get back to the original point, I don't think climate change is a direct result of "colonisation". If we assume it's real, and a result of fossil fuels and industry, rather than a hypothetical scenario pushed by people in power, then it's simply a result of burning fossil fuels. If there's an undiscovered tribe that has not yet been "colonised" then they will be subject to its effects just like everyone else. No matter how sustainably they live, or unspoiled their culture is. So if Maori and Aboriginal Australians had not suffered through being colonised (acknowledging both negative and positive changes to their lives), they would still have a hypothetical 2C warming to cope with, and their houses along the coast being potentially submerged by rising sea levels, or whatever is supposed to happen.

It's stupid to say "colonisation causes climate change" - burning fossil fuels is the apparent cause, and every single one of us can choose not to live a life with fossil fuels, but we don't, because it's much easier to use abundant energy than be Amish.

It's probably more appropriate to say that "seeking constant return on investment with interest bearing debt requiring more and more energy to produce goods to pay the debt" caused climate change. Therefore, the Jews :P
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Old 18th November 2022, 12:03     #1910
Lightspeed
 
That capitalism is so successful but we still have all this misery, injustice, deprivation, that's an indictment on us.

We have so much and still we can't stop for a moment to reach a hand out to those struggling in our communities.

Entropy says "capitalism is cool and all, but what else ya got?"

We better come up with an answer to that question, cause entropy got no chill.
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Old 18th November 2022, 12:53     #1911
xor
 
Then look at your own value system to see how you can help those in need and not the state.
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Old 18th November 2022, 13:01     #1912
Lightspeed
 
I'm doing both.
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Old 18th November 2022, 14:13     #1913
xor
 
Yeah, cool. Good luck trying to raise capital for some awesome product in a non-capitalist world. You might have an idea that could save millions of people but it'd never see the light of day because you'd be missing the the investors that would help establish it.
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Old 18th November 2022, 14:21     #1914
Lightspeed
 
I'm not arguing against capitalism. I'm arguing for progress beyond capitalism.

I'm both doing the little I can, and calling for the community and government to do their parts.
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Old 18th November 2022, 23:56     #1915
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:

On Tuesday, Girl Guides of Canada announced that it would be renaming the "Brownies," a label given to their seven to eight-year-olds members, claiming it had caused "personal harm" to people of colour.
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Old 19th November 2022, 11:37     #1916
Caesar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
On Tuesday, Girl Guides of Canada announced that it would be renaming the "Brownies," a label given to their seven to eight-year-olds members, claiming it had caused "personal harm" to people of colour.
So what about the Girl Guides and Boy Scouts? How long before we see a change in those names I wonder.
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Old 19th November 2022, 18:04     #1917
Lightspeed
 
Only as they lose relevancy. Gender reveal parties suggest probably not until at least the children being born now are adults.
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Old 21st November 2022, 10:16     #1918
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
UK Ministry of Justice issues directive warning staff not to use transphobic speech such as the phrase “protecting women and girls”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...g-women-could/
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Old 22nd November 2022, 22:36     #1919
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
A serial pedophile estimated to have committed over 1,000 sex crimes against children has had his community sentence relaxed following his transition to “female.”

https://reduxx.info/aus-serial-pedop...-of-offending/
Cool
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:42     #1920
wazza
*flex*
 
wtf
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