What grinds your gears?

[Whiplash]

Originally Posted by herp

Lots of high horse stuff about the Undie 500 "debacle." I've been involved in the Undie 500 and I've seen alot worse overseas (specifically Pamplona opening day this year) without so much whinging and complaining.

Oh? Oh ok then, well that makes perfect sense.

Hey, in Yemin they marry off 12 year old girls who end up dying during childbirth. I mean, it happens over there and there's not so much whinging and complaining...

Idiot.

[Thomas Meatball]

As ashamed and dirty as it makes me feel to side with the cops, when it comes to students I'll side with the cops any day. Sickbo is bang on the money.
I think the students need a few good batons to the head and maybe they'll learn a bit of authority.

[Vrtigo]

Originally Posted by SickBo@Work

Is it that hard for supposedly educated young adults to stop themselves from blocking off entire streets, acting like animals, light uncontrolled fires in the middle of them and then attack and throw bottles at the Police and Fire Brigade when they turn up.

yes, and you seem to have forgotten this fact.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Vrtigo

yes, and you seem to have forgotten this fact.

What's your solution then? Let boys be boys and they'll eventually tire themselves out from all the looting and rioting?

[Vrtigo]

nah, i dont have a solution. but young people will be young people - you cant just whap them collectively on the nose and say "be good!"... like thats going to happen...

what i was implying was that sickbo was young once, and probably did reckless things in his youth. he should know full well what an attraction "being bad" is.

[Whiplash]

There's a fair distinction between the average kid being bad, such as throwing eggs at cars or something equally minor, and being part of a riot for no justifiable reason.

[Helious]

^^ agreed.

[crocos]

And at a minimum age of 17 (Uni students) they should know what is socially acceptable by then.

[flic]

back in my day if we broke the law we got a criminal conviction that would stop us from getting a good job.


Doesn't seem to be that way anymore

[Helious]

^^ what planet are you on?

[StN]

Are you referring to the statement last week that Diversion would not be available to students over the weekend?

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Whiplash

There's a fair distinction between the average kid being bad, such as throwing eggs at cars or something equally minor, and being part of a riot for no justifiable reason.

I don't think that some drunk kids rioting necessarily makes them bad. But they do have to take responsibility for their actions, whether they were caught up in the moment or not.

Imo diversion is a good system. People make mistakes and that (particularly minor stuff) shouldn't hinder them their whole life. But you shouldn't be granted one for throwing glass bottles at people.

[Yoda]

Especially not when there's history.

I find comments from students who supposedly live in the street fucking annoying.

"I was just standing on our flat lawn and I got pepper sprayed".

Boo fucking hoo. This conflict has happened before; if you had half a clue and actually wanted to stay out of it, you'd have fucked off for the weekend. No, you wanted to "watch" the proceedings (meaning, participate if you thought you wouldn't get in trouble, most likely).

A police officer shouldn't have to put up with glass bottles hurled at them, and watch the offender get a slap on the wrist.

Personally, I'd like to know what kind of training drill the army might consider the situation...

Something has to be done differently, every year there's a new batch of kids who haven't seen the consequences, and think a riot is a great idea.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I don't think that some drunk kids rioting necessarily makes them bad. But they do have to take responsibility for their actions, whether they were caught up in the moment or not.

Imo diversion is a good system. People make mistakes and that (particularly minor stuff) shouldn't hinder them their whole life. But you shouldn't be granted one for throwing glass bottles at people.

Is that just a really long winded way of saying that you agree with Whiplash?

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

Is that just a really long winded way of saying that you agree with Whiplash?

Maybe it was. I thought that I differed in that though rioting is bad I think that the teenagers involved were drunken fools rather than "bad" eggs.

[crocos]

There's drunken tomfoolery, and that's fine - slap over the wrist stuff.

This was well beyond that. Need their asses kicked.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Maybe it was. I thought that I differed in that though rioting is bad I think that the teenagers involved were drunken fools rather than "bad" eggs.

It's such a minor point of difference and ultimately irrelevant so I have to ask... who fucken cares?

[Disinformation]

Originally Posted by Yoda

"I was just standing on our flat lawn and I got pepper sprayed".

Boo fucking hoo. This conflict has happened before; if you had half a clue and actually wanted to stay out of it, you'd have fucked off for the weekend. No, you wanted to "watch" the proceedings (meaning, participate if you thought you wouldn't get in trouble, most likely).

So you're saying that you'd have no problems with being forced out of your house for a weekend because some people are going to misbehave in the street?

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

It's such a minor point of difference and ultimately irrelevant so I have to ask... who fucken cares?

When you're making a moral judgment, context is relevant. I often come across people who don't look at events in context; all they see is the outcome and not the dynamics of the situation.

[Whiplash]

The social context of 'hey lets get really drunk and make a mess.'? The Undie 500 isn't a one-off and similar shit happens every time. So, one has to at least admit that the students were aware of prior destructive events and still chose to not only take part but to cause havoc themselves.

I get what you're saying and where you're coming from - but don't get trapped in the habit of over analyzing everything and missing the conclusion.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Vrtigo

what i was implying was that sickbo was young once, and probably did reckless things in his youth. he should know full well what an attraction "being bad" is.

Speak for yourself and your friends. I don't know anyone who's blocked off streets and set off uncontrolled fires on couches.

Originally Posted by Yoda

Especially not when there's history.

I find comments from students who supposedly live in the street fucking annoying.

"I was just standing on our flat lawn and I got pepper sprayed".

Boo fucking hoo. This conflict has happened before; if you had half a clue and actually wanted to stay out of it, you'd have fucked off for the weekend. No, you wanted to "watch" the proceedings (meaning, participate if you thought you wouldn't get in trouble, most likely).

Sorry, this isn't just stupid. Your diatribe is downright ignorant, devoid of rational thought, and just as unacceptable in a civilised society as what the Dunedin fuckwits are doing. IF these allegations are true, the cops involved would have breached all their guidelines relating to the use of OC sprays and would almost certainly be guilty of assault. You can't on the one hand criticise idiots who break the law and make an ass of themselves whilst condoning what would be unlawful use of force.

And engage your brain for a moment, when a bunch of fuckwits want to burn things on my street, your solution is that I should just pay good money to live elsewhere for a weekend or risk being randomly assaulted by cops if I, for example, dare to pass by on the way home? Why don't you buy yourself a one-way ticket to the people's paridise that's the Democratic Peopl's Republic of Korea, AKA North Korea?

[fidgit]

Originally Posted by A Corpse

Wut? Since when, it's always been free when I've called it. o.O

Originally Posted by Vodafone Website

Its free to use the automated touchtone menus on 777 to check your balance, topup or pay by credit card, and more. It costs $1 per call to talk to Customer Service about your Prepay mobile. There is no charge for this from your On Account mobile.

I assume he's using prepay.

[Helious]

haha, cyc's on the money~ quite eloquent really

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by cyc

Why don't you buy yourself a one-way ticket to the people's paridise that's the Democratic Peopl's Republic of Korea, AKA North Korea?

What about China? They're like that too.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Whiplash

I get what you're saying and where you're coming from - but don't get trapped in the habit of over analyzing everything and missing the conclusion.

I get the conclusion and agree that students found to be throwing bottles should be convicted for it. I just think that identifying context is not apologetic, but rather is pragmatic in terms of solutions.

Imo a big contextual factor is the number of students living in close proximity. There are literally thousands of students living in the relative small campus area. In other Universities I've visited I found student housing to be more spread out & included non-student residents.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

What about China? They're like that too.

People who move need to spend their money and resources on settling down, man. He should just settle on the DPRK instead of fluffing money around visiting China to see if there's a place more autocratic and more "suitable" for him. You don't play by the rules in those places, consequences are much more serious than just being pepper sprayed!

Just don't say anything about Obama being better than Kim Jung Il. There's history, Yoda -- dissidents are harshly dealt to in the people's paradise!

[Thomas Meatball]

O I C what you're getting at, you were going for the biggest cuntiest of the cunty nations. Fair enough. I suppose NK is fairly more cunty than China.


I'm still keeping my good eye on China, though.

[fidgit]

I can't help but wonder what the reaction of the people sticking up for the students (or at least arguing against the 'lock them up for breaking the law'), would say if it wasn't a group of well-off white kids, but a group of yellow-and-black bandanna wearing 18 year old Maori kids, blocking off a street, setting fire to peoples furniture and throwing bottles at cops.

I suspect no ones going to be suggesting the Killa Beez are just 'boys being boys', and if only the cops stood there and watched, things would be better.

[Helious]

ugh, too far. i'm over it.

can we move on now please?

[fidgit]

Originally Posted by Helious

ugh, too far. i'm over it.

can we move on now please?

I shall comment no more on this topic.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by cyc

Sorry, this isn't just stupid. Your diatribe is downright ignorant, devoid of rational thought, and just as unacceptable in a civilised society as what the Dunedin fuckwits are doing. IF these allegations are true, the cops involved would have breached all their guidelines relating to the use of OC sprays and would almost certainly be guilty of assault. You can't on the one hand criticise idiots who break the law and make an ass of themselves whilst condoning what would be unlawful use of force.

I'm not saying they're true, this is what some students have said; quoted in the ODT.

Obviously they're not on their lawn minding their own business. They're sitting on the fringe of the spectacle. Along with comments from Police (both this year and last) that bottles were being thrown from properties as well as from people on the street.

Originally Posted by cyc

And engage your brain for a moment, when a bunch of fuckwits want to burn things on my street, your solution is that I should just pay good money to live elsewhere for a weekend or risk being randomly assaulted by cops if I, for example, dare to pass by on the way home? Why don't you buy yourself a one-way ticket to the people's paridise that's the Democratic Peopl's Republic of Korea, AKA North Korea?

Heh, so if there was a riot in your street you'd expect and demand a clear path through it? If I was a student down there, I wouldn't be hanging around near the conflict. At a minimum you'd stay at a decent distance to keep yourself out of it, or inside; personally I'd just go crash at a mates and avoid the whole thing - easy for most students to do. That was the intention of what I posted; sorry it wasn't quite specific enough for you.

I wouldn't be hanging around close enough to give Police a reason to spray me (obviously there was for this person to be sprayed, since as you mention, there's quite the justification process for it to happen), and then whining about it afterwards.

As far as I can see, our "rights" are making it hard to stop these from occurring. While I'm sure you'd be happy to wax rhetoric on the judicial system for the aftermath, what do you think can be done to stop them happening in the first place?

I'm sure the DCC and UoO haven't done enough (the DCC in particular are completely fucking useless for everything at the moment), but essentially it pisses me off that our Police have to gear up and avoid bottles.

[Helious]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Heh, so if there was a riot in your street you'd expect and demand a clear path through it? If I was a student down there, I wouldn't be hanging around near the conflict. At a minimum you'd stay at a decent distance to keep yourself out of it, or inside; personally I'd just go crash at a mates and avoid the whole thing - easy for most students to do. That was the intention of what I posted; sorry it wasn't quite specific enough for you.

That's exactly what I thought you were saying man. cyc's an awesome keyboard warrior though ;p I love it~

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I'm not saying they're true, this is what some students have said; quoted in the ODT.

Obviously they're not on their lawn minding their own business. They're sitting on the fringe of the spectacle. Along with comments from Police (both this year and last) that bottles were being thrown from properties as well as from people on the street.

I wasn't commenting on the truth or otherwise of the allegations re: police randomly spraying people. I was commenting on the fact that you felt the need to defend such actions if they indeed occurred. For the second time, let me offer this to you: neither the police's internal guidelines on the use of OC spray (which is widely quoted in a judgment by a HC judge) nor the law of this country make it acceptable to just randomly spray OC sprays at people for "sitting on the fringe of the spectacle", however undesirable or unacceptable such spectacles are.

There's this typical "But what the fuck else should the cops do?" response. My answer to this is simple: in a country where we all supposedly adhere to the rule of law and actually endeavour to maintain some semblence of a liberal democracy, it's an unfortunate fact of life that certain fuckwits can "win" by virtue of law enforcement not being able to deal to them to the fullest extent considered desirable by some. Hey look, you can guarantee that (for example) a thieve can't steal again if you summarily execute him, yet we don't do it. Why not? Because law and order isn't everything.

At the end of the day, the police got the streets under control. Some of the idiots involved got arrested -- if they are guilty, they should be dealt with severely. Unlike you, however, I don't want a police state just because we have some retards in our midst.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by cyc

I was commenting on the fact that you felt the need to defend such actions if they indeed occurred.

You get so hung up on the implementation of the law. Clearly you love your law, and practically froth at the mouth over it (someone voiced an opinion on an internet forum, POLICE STATE LOVER).

Yes, your point that they can currently do it is valid. Yes, social environment yadda, parents yadda, etc.

There's an annual riot in Dunedin, and applying your legal stick to my opinon while frothing about police state, doesn't stop it happening next year.

[p-b]

Next year, I'm going to hold the Undie 500 in my pants!
And everyone is invited.

[[WanG] Wandarah]

Originally Posted by Yoda

You get so hung up on the implementation of the law. Clearly you love your law, and practically froth at the mouth over it (someone voiced an opinion on an internet forum, POLICE STATE LOVER).

Yes, your point that they can currently do it is valid. Yes, social environment yadda, parents yadda, etc.

There's an annual riot in Dunedin, and applying your legal stick to my opinon while frothing about police state, doesn't stop it happening next year.

respond no point there is.
never win will you.
there is no wrong, only endless typing.
mmmmmm.

[herp]

Originally Posted by Whiplash

Oh? Oh ok then, well that makes perfect sense.

Hey, in Yemin they marry off 12 year old girls who end up dying during childbirth. I mean, it happens over there and there's not so much whinging and complaining...

Idiot.

lol.

I'm speaking from personal experience having been to both Pamplona this year and the Undie 500 in 2002. Whatever though, if you want to ban fun go ahead. I forget how anti-social some people can be.

[Jodi]

Originally Posted by herp

Whatever though, if you want to ban fun go ahead. I forget how anti-social some people can be.

Well, gee. I must be anti-social, because I think starting a riot, burning other people's property, and throwing bottles at the police is a fucked up way of having fun. They are all a bunch of tard monkeys that should learn to take responsibility for their actions.

(oh, you might be sarky. In that case ... ignore)

[herp]

The word 'riot' is being thrown about pretty easily around here without much thought to it..

I've been to the Undie 500 in Dunedin and I've lived on Castle Street, I've seen what happens down there. I believe this is just a massive media beat up from the start, so the cops got involved and that is where I believe the trouble all starts.

No bottles would have been thrown if the police didn't turn up in riot gear, form a line across the street, march everyone away and pepper spray everyone. What did they expect to happen, seriously? What ever happens when police turn up somewhere in riot gear and get aggressive - a riot starts (like Whangamata in 96 (also present)). Cops don't turn up in riot gear and politely ask people to turn away - they yell, chase, stick you with batons and spray shit in your face. I've seen police in riot gear whack 70 year old men and young children, there's no politeness when they are kitted up. Do you expect 18-20 year old students to just back down when intimidated like that?

As for couch burning, it's pretty much a tradition down there and "burning other peoples property" is only ever "burning our own property." It happens every weekend and you only ever burn your own couch. Being shocked at that really shows how ignorant some people are at what goes down there. There was a time where you couldn't even park your car on Castle St for fear of it being trashed.

I'm not condoning the people who threw the bottles - they should get what they deserve - but I'm not condoning the actions taken by the police either. It would have never happened if it was properly organised through official channels. I can't believe the amount of animosity in this forum from people wanting to ban it and crucify the students.

Personally, I think the event itself is awesome and it's hilarious to witness the Canterbury students go all out in their costumes and drive their made-up shitboxes through the streets. It puts the costumes at the Welly 7's to shame.

Anyways that's just my perspective from own experiences. I see both sides of the argument here but some grumpy people here seem to suffer from extreme agoraphobia. Probably the same people who complained when Auckland wanted to host the V8's.

[Whiplash]

It's not agoraphobia to expect some level of civility within the student population.