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2nd February 2016, 16:24 | #41 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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2nd February 2016, 16:43 | #42 |
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Yeah, I think calling CCS ingorant probably does qualify as ad hominem, as far as my post goes. However, there are two points to be made in my defence.
First, not all ad hominem is fallacious. I don't think my ad hominem here was fallacious. It points out the fact that CCS is ignorant in some respects, and that is a relevant consideration when evaluating the claims he is making. If they are the kind of claims that an ignorant person would typically make, we should perhaps regard them with a greater degree of suspicion than we otherwise would. Second, if CCS were actually making a sensible argument or point of any sort, rather than just parroting inane right wing bullshit stereotypes, perhaps I would have responded to the argument. But he had nothing interesting or original to say, it was the same old same old, and has been so thoroughly pulled to bits on so many occasions by so many different commentators that I just couldn't be bothered. It was far more exedient to simply point out the fact of his ignorance, which he so beautifully illustrated for us. |
2nd February 2016, 17:33 | #43 |
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Thats fine but at the same time we have a skills shortage list which suggests there could be an opportunity to apply it in a more effective way. Of course you don't want to simply create a shortage somewhere else and a whole lot of unemployed IT graduates.
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2nd February 2016, 19:26 | #44 | |
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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2nd February 2016, 22:17 | #45 | |
Stunt Pants
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To think that Heyzoos got shitty and attacked me instead of my argument because he couldn't keep up with the thread. Pretty poor form really. Heyzoos, withdraw and apologise.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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2nd February 2016, 22:47 | #46 | |||
Stunt Pants
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I'm guessing you have an arts degree and got your feelings hurt when I made fun of it? Here's the bits you're supposed to focus on: Quote:
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So if everybody is quite done with being insecure about their arts degrees, let us proceed. Here's my idea: subsidise STEM subjects and courses that are on the long term skills shortage list (short term skills shortages have to be filled by immigrants who have the requisite skills and experience right now). There is no skills shortage in marketing, arts, pottery, hip hop dancers etc. Those people should expect to pay the usual tuition fees. A couple of professions on the long term skills shortage list are doctors and nurses. So it would make sense to offer big subsidies on tertiary education for those professions. The graduates must be bonded to work in NZ for a certain period of time. Five years maybe? Here's a problem though, and it isn't solved by free or subsidised education. Why do we have a shortage of doctors and nurses? I presume that it's simply that you make more money overseas as a doctor than you do here, and probably the same for nurses. Free/subsidised education may help insofar as some doctors may not feel the need to chase the big bucks if they don't have a large student loan. Others may want to chase the larger salary all the same or they want the overseas experience. That's fine. They can pay the full course fees if they want to head overseas instead of being bonded here. What I'm getting at is that it would help to pay doctors here commensurate with what the would earn overseas, or close to it. That means more funding from the government.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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2nd February 2016, 22:53 | #47 | |
Stunt Pants
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¹ substitute for the name of whatever tertiary degree upsets you the most if I make fun of it.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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2nd February 2016, 22:57 | #48 | |
Stunt Pants
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At the end of the day, they're voters and taxpayers and they get a say.
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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2nd February 2016, 23:01 | #49 | |
Stunt Pants
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Here's something to consider:
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
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3rd February 2016, 11:53 | #50 | |
Robosexual
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4th February 2016, 01:47 | #51 | |
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4th February 2016, 07:53 | #52 |
Stunt Pants
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You're really fixated on that aren't you?
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I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner? |
5th February 2016, 00:00 | #53 | ||
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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8th March 2016, 10:24 | #54 |
Robosexual
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Nice article. I like the logic of...
"The case for sparing the taxpayer the cost of tertiary education by applying a "user pays" principle looks pretty shaky when the user and the taxpayer are the same people." |
12th February 2024, 19:20 | #55 | ||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/educat...FOHXUDJVR46OI/ Quote:
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12th February 2024, 20:14 | #56 |
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I would think that Covid come along and the resulting economic disaster disproportionately effected poorer people, shutting them out. Without the scheme enrollments would have been a lot worse.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
13th February 2024, 10:30 | #57 |
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Isn't there some massive leaps in logic there to reach those conclusions?
Tertiary enrollment declined for every demographic and ethnic group, but slightly more so in low socio-economic or poorer communities. (resulting in the "students from wealthier backgrounds making up an increasingly greater share.") therefore, it's not worth covering the first year, and instead let's cover the last year? It would appear to me that it's not incentivizing additional signups, and more or less the same students would be either seeking or choosing to not seek tertiary education regardless of whether any particular year is fully funded or student loan funded. You're just giving it to those that could fund/borrow their way into courses either way. If someone doesn't think they can fund year 2 and 3, they're not going to sign up to a three year bachelor course just to get the first year free. Funding the third year's no better, because it assumes they can fund year 1 and 2.
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ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ Last edited by Cyberbob : 13th February 2024 at 10:35. |
13th February 2024, 12:25 | #58 | ||
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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13th February 2024, 13:22 | #59 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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The scales were tipped in favour of the wealthy from the very start. It is literally a government handout to people and families who value university education and aspire to white-collar careers. What do you think such people look like? Where do they go to school? What are their home environments like?
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13th February 2024, 16:33 | #60 |
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Stay shook. No sook. |
13th February 2024, 17:27 | #61 | |
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Iirc it included trades etc and the plan was to extend it to second & third years.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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13th February 2024, 18:46 | #62 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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How much does the first year of a trade cost? How much does the first year of dentistry cost?
If both are made free, what sort of person is getting the greatest assistance? |
13th February 2024, 19:20 | #63 | |
I have detailed files
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13th February 2024, 20:08 | #64 |
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I'm all for initiatives that help alienated groups engage in education and from this move on to tertiary institutions. It's very much a socioeconomic as well as an institutional racism thing. Things like serious wealth distribution, spending on social services, reframing how we teach the curriculum to be more relevant to Maori, guaranteed seats at the table where it's decided what's important & what's not. Removing financial barriers to study is part of this.
Like paid maternity leave, free fees is taken up more by middle class. This doesn't necessitate it being something we shouldn't do as a society.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
13th February 2024, 20:52 | #65 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Opportunity cost; every dollar that went on free fees for future doctors is a dollar taken away from early childhood.
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14th February 2024, 00:16 | #66 |
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And future teachers, nurses, electricians, builders, social workers, accounts, surveyors, radiologists and a long list of services we need for society to function.
If people want resources to be not so hoarded to the point of this false scarcity, then start voting for the parties that want to tax land & wealth & assets.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
14th February 2024, 02:05 | #67 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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You meant “tax capital gains”… right?
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14th February 2024, 10:09 | #68 |
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ALL THE TAXES!?!
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
14th February 2024, 11:15 | #69 |
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Taxes isn't the problem. The govt receives a ridiculous amount in tax revenue. Successive governments show time and time again how they waste taxpayer dollars.
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14th February 2024, 11:29 | #70 |
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What makes the amount ridiculous? I do think there should be a lot less income tax.
And who gets to decide what is to be categorised as wasteful?
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
14th February 2024, 11:48 | #71 |
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govt depts go on spending sprees to use up any leftover budget at the end of financial year. This sort of mentality is the typical attitude of govt depts and is just a teeny tiny example of wastage.
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14th February 2024, 13:07 | #72 |
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That doesn't mean it's not spent on earmarked projects
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
14th February 2024, 13:31 | #73 |
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It's just a meme. As old as the Romans at least.
The biggest waste is opportunity cost, but that's too much like smart-pants expert talk for many.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
14th February 2024, 17:10 | #74 | |
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14th February 2024, 17:32 | #75 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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A cynic might comment that Labour's policy was intended to generate support among young voters.
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14th February 2024, 17:40 | #76 |
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A pragmatist might think the same. After all, Labour can't leverage fear of the other, like the parties currently in government can. They can't threaten us with the poors or the browns. The most they can do is fund public broadcasters that have to toe the line, and only while in power. Whereas their opponents have the bankroll to fund private broadcasters any day of the week.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
14th February 2024, 23:32 | #77 | |
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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15th February 2024, 08:37 | #78 | |
I have detailed files
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15th February 2024, 13:01 | #79 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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15th February 2024, 13:04 | #80 | |
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