nCoV 2019

[Nich]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

With fascism you're either working a mass grave or you're in one.

Fucking hell man.

We're US's bitch. RAND is more than happy to describe the ways in which it will sacrifice Europe / Ukraine to Russia, and Australia / NZ to China if it squeaks out a few more years of imperialism. We're too whipped to realise we're in the vanguard.

It extends to how our governments virtue signal to please US too. CDC, FDA, Fauci and Pfizer call the tune, and Europe, Canada, UK, Aus, NZ all buy their shitty ideas and products.

[Lightspeed]

So you've just discovered US hegemony? And you think it's fascism?

Look at how we vote. We're willing to throw the vulnerable under the bus for a budget surplus, but you expect world powers to be purely egalitarian?

[Lightspeed]

Media council upholds complaints against RNZ for stories about government decision on when to end MIQ

The Media Council welcomes investigative journalism. However the majority decided that the three RNZ articles summarised the Ministry of Health document incorrectly. While accepting that RNZ was working from only one Ministry of Health memo it was misleading to indicate, as the RNZ articles did, that an abandonment of MIQ was now recommended in that first memo. In fact the memo qualified the move from MIQ by saying it had to be a carefully managed and staged transition amongst other qualifications. The Director-General of Health's recommendation was that MIQ "may" no longer be justified. The government responses included at the end of the first and second articles did not correct this unfairness.

I suppose this means The Media Council is on the government take as well? They step in when broadcasters forget the government money they enjoy?

[Ab]

An open letter that made headlines calling for a herd immunity approach to Covid-19 lists a number of apparently fake names among its expert signatories, including “Dr Johnny Bananas” and “Professor Cominic Dummings”.

The Great Barrington declaration, which was said to have been signed by more than 15,000 scientists and medical practitioners around the world, was found by Sky News to contain numerous false names, as well as those of several homeopaths.

Others listed include a resident at the “university of your mum” and another supposed specialist whose name was the first verse of the Macarena.

Sky News discovered 18 self-declared homeopaths in the list of expert names and more than 100 therapists whose expertise included massage, hypnotherapy and Mongolian khoomii singing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-bananas-covid

[Cyberbob]

Massive points for such blatant demonising of homeopaths.

[Nich]

Looks like it needs another "swift and devastating take down". Pesky science, can't it just be deleted from the internet so we can get higher than 2% injecting themselves with our "approved" Omicron shots.

No one is buying it. Vaccine, pharma, public health integrity is obliterated. No one wants to go any further into the abyss, and no one wants to look back at their shameful COVID years.

Well, I'll gladly keep talking about it.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

Looks like it needs another "swift and devastating take down".

Nah, leave it up. It's a good example of the level of competent of these people.

15k isn't a very large number really, it wouldn't have taken all that much work to verify signatories.

[Nich]

What has a higher quality of endorsement?:
-15k voluntary real & fake signatories (some of the fake names fear they may lose their job if they are identified... others are trolls); or
-1 million doctors and nurses who just follow orders or lose their job if they deviate

Their alternate strategy was intended to spark debate, as stated in the declaration. What they noticed was the 2020 response seemed to be the exact counter to almost all prior studies and research into pandemic responses. They wanted public debate, that was too "extreme" to be allowed.

They also noticed that official COVID response had zero risk/benefit analysis. I could go into that, but what's the point it's all blatantly obvious all the risks pretty much came to pass and none of the benefits were proven.

[Lightspeed]

In what universe is the healthcare profession populated by people who are there because they need the work?

And who are "they"?

[Nothing]

Sad to see the state of the conversations on NZG has ended up like this.

[_indigo1]

You kidding?
This is my version of the womans weekly!

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Sad to see the state of the conversations on NZG has ended up like this.

I don't know what you're talking about. When was it NOT like this?

[Nich]

You're welcome, happy to oblige.

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

In what universe is the healthcare profession populated by people who are there because they need the work?

And who are "they"?

Doctors or nurses with a license to practice get work, demand is high. That's not what I'm arguing. Some of them had a conscience and promoted (COVID) vaccine hesitancy (or put their real name as a signatory on the GBD), lost their license, and their ability to practice medicine. What I'm saying is other doctors / nurses also have a conscience, but are unwilling to lose their license.

To clarify, "They" = authors of Great Barrington Declaration

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

I don't know what you're talking about. When was it NOT like this?

Yeah, sort of, true enough there have always been bigots and idiots here. I guess the change is that up until recently most of it didn't really matter for issues like public health. Maybe I'd held some (naive?) hope that when it came to stuff like this, it would be some sort of recognisably different category that everyone would be less inclined to be silly buggers about, but here we are.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Nich

Some of them had a conscience and promoted (COVID) vaccine hesitancy

Ages ago someone waved some NZDSOS open letter or something in front of my face, telling me that 150 doctors and nurses in NZ had signed this letter warning that the vaccines were dangerous. Of course, that number sounds scary if you're not smart enough to ask how many doctors and nurses in NZ there are.

It turns out there are about 16,908 doctors and about 58,206 nurses, for a total population of 16,908 + 58,206 = 75,114. So if 150 doctors and nurses signed their stupid letter, then that ammounts to 150/75,114 = 0.19% of the doctors and nurses in NZ. I can't be completely sure, but I wouldn't be in any way shocked to learn that the proportions are similar in other countries around the world.

And so basically, you're arguing that for an entire profession of people whose profession exists *solely to help people and ease suffering*, that 99.8% of the people in that profession don't have a conscience. Genious.

[Nothing]

The thing that really is a head scratcher for me, is that there are still people who think that the vaccines are worse than covid, even though it's pretty straight forward to see the difference in deaths between us (a country that was more or less fully vaccinated *before* covid got loose in the population), and somewhere like America, where the virus ran rampant for a year before they got their hands on the vaccine.

America:

Covid cases: 96,200,000
Covid deaths: 1,060,000

Death rate per 100 cases = 1,060,000/96,200,000 = ~1.1

NZ:

Covid cases: 1,780,000
Covid deaths: 2,030

Death rate per 100 cases = 2,030/1,780,000 = ~0.11

Without the vaccine their rate of death has been literally ten times higher than ours.

Even if you take all of the people in our country who could *conceivably* claim that the vaccine has injured them in some way (there have been, according to medsafe, 2905 adverse events of special interest following vaccination, as at 31/08/2022), and add them to the total number of deaths we have had, even if you do that and you say that actually the vaccine just straight up *killed* all of those people, we would still be doing:

4935/1,780,000 = death rate per 100 cases 0.27 = 1.1/0.27 =

407% better than America.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Nothing

The thing that really is a head scratcher for me, is that there are still people who think that the vaccines are worse than covid...

If I was to guess, it's because the overwhelming majority of people who died from COVID (the metric you compare) were 65+. In the USA, that was 75% of the deaths, and the bulk of the rest were 50+.

Meanwhile, the side effects of the vaccines affect people of all ages [ie. not at high risk from COVID], are not necessarily fatal, but they can be life-altering and permanent. Anytime someone claimed vax injury, it was denied that there is a link, or they were "faking it for donations" as the case was on here. Because "the science". These outcomes are not included in any COVID death rates, and so are invisible in your comparison. The side effects seem to occur in people of all ages and fitness levels - most notably turning fit athletes into heart clenchers, or causing half your face to become paralysed, or you break out in a horrible rash, or you get diagnosed with myocarditis, etc. Some people are getting brain bleeds, or there's a "mysterious condition" called SADS which is "baffling experts", and "unknown causes" has become a very trendy way to die among young people, and it feels like we know what's going on, but no one's willing to say it out loud. Then there are the embalmers reporting blood clots, but it's on Rumble, or they're talking to a person who was character assassinated, so we just ignore it because "misinformation". They just woke up one day and thought "today I feel like telling lies and risking my reputation" and made a video that may have earned them $6. Clearly a profit motive.

When these "conditions which are baffling experts" suddenly become popular, after a mass vaccination rollout, and anyone who poses any link to vaccines gets discredited/censored, it's just a bad look. A "bad look" is not science, but it's enough for me to say "I don't trust that shit, it seems dodgy, and COVID seems mild to anyone but the 65+ group".

In short - if you're young and not at risk of COVID, putting yourself at risk of vax injury multiple times and still getting COVID [which of course carries its own risk] doesn't seem like the best bet. Maybe the situation would be different if the vaccine actually prevented COVID, then you can substitute one set of risks for another, but the current vaccine seems to just add risk, not replace it. That's my definition of "worse" - I am not saying more people died from vaccines than we had old people dying from COVID.

That's at least my logic. My friend has MCAS after being vaccinated, and that's been reported as a common "rare" side effect. I haven't mentioned the vaccine link with her because she was a hand sanitizer freak, and put all her faith in the TV and vaccines. It's not worth causing friction, because at this point it doesn't matter how it happened, she's just got to deal with it. Now she takes meds which have side effects of their own (liver toxicity). The nurses at the hospital were apparently pretty useless, and I imagine they're overworked and full of faith so they're not reporting it to anyone as being related to the vaccine either, so that's a data point that will likely never be seen or confirmed. Only after we have years of data and can look back at the incidence rate of various conditions and say "look at these big changes after 2021" will we have some idea. But still, we can't unvaccinate anyone, so I don't expect it to ever happen.

[Lightspeed]

Fucking Logan's Run right here. Reach an age, well, you don't really count in stats do you. Your death is normal and acceptable.

[Ab]

I do suspect there’s an element of “suck it boomers” resentment in play. Maybe not everywhere, maybe not for everyone, maybe not all the time.

[Nich]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Fucking Logan's Run right here. Reach an age, well, you don't really count in stats do you. Your death is normal and acceptable.

Unless your normal and acceptable death can be used to scare the shit out of everyone else.

[Nich]

Originally Posted by Nothing

And so basically, you're arguing that for an entire profession of people whose profession exists *solely to help people and ease suffering*, that 99.8% of the people in that profession don't have a conscience. Genious.

Whoa now, beautiful mind. Let me help you with comprehension: They have a conscience, but they chose their job instead of speaking up.

Is that hard to understand? People also were against getting injected, but did it to keep their shitty job, or to continue going to the gym, or whatever "return to normal" they were promised.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

Unless your normal and acceptable death can be used to scare the shit out of everyone else.

Well, in the dialectic between "they're old, the deaths don't matter" and "you should be scared of all this death" I think the middle ground is something like "let's take the best precautions we know, while still leaving core services functioning".

Originally Posted by Nich

They have a conscience, but they chose their job instead of speaking up.

Is that hard to understand?

It really, really is. The work is often grim, paying poorly, requiring skills that could earn much more in other industries. But they're still choosing their jobs over our wellbeing?

It just doesn't make sense, at all.

[Nich]

cmon man, it doesn't have to make sense. People do shit that hurts themselves and others for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes people hurt others, but think they are helping them. What's up with that!? We could argue why people do illogical shit, or betray their principles , but what's the point?

A personal anecdote, when my daughter was born (October 2021 COVID wave), pretty much all the nurses in maternity (one of them was taking a break from COVID wards), would bring it up how they thought the whole charade was bullshit, lead by bureaucracy rather than better health outcomes, and that many of their colleagues had resigned leaving permanent staffing shortages

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

cmon man, it doesn't have to make sense. People do shit that hurts themselves and others for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes people hurt others, but think they are helping them. What's up with that!? We could argue why people do illogical shit, or betray their principles , but what's the point?

Of course it has to make sense. Humans are biological organisms. We're literal organisations. Organisation that must walk an extremely narrow path if that organisation is to persist.

Human behaviour might be stochastic, but it's not random or arbitrary.

If it doesn't have to make sense, then why such a boring story? Why not go with a cosmic battle between ghost aliens and the ancient Earth spirit Gaia?

[Nich]

And speaking of that period leading up to the birth of my daughter. Every single midwife visit R would be given the full sales pitch for vaccination, sometimes they'd call in another and they would double-team her and push her on the vaccine (I couldn't come in because hospital COVID policy).

Each visit, the same thing. It's safe, it's effective, studies show, doesn't negatively affect baby, immune protection passed onto baby blah blah blah lies lies lies. She ended up getting the vaccine but she cried all day, she didn't feel like it was her choice. She just wanted the midwives to leave her alone. I let her down.

Let's check in on that information direct from Pfizer (which hasn't changed since 2021 by the way):
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documen...nt-plan_en.pdf

From page 145 on:

Table 49. Missing Information: Use in Pregnancy and while Breast Feeding
...
Table 50. Missing Information: Use in Immunocompromised Patients
...
Table 51. Missing Information: Use in Frail Patients with Co-morbidities (eg.
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), diabetes, chronic
neurological disease, cardiovascular disorders)
...
Table 52. Missing Information: Use in Patients with Autoimmune or Inflammatory
Disorders
...
Table 53. Missing Information: Interaction with other Vaccines
...
Table 54. Missing Information: Long Term Safety Data

fuck these psychopaths.

[Lightspeed]

I see your response here as a function of privilege. You've never spent much or any time on the hard edge of the competition for resources. It's unfortunate that you're being impacted by it right during a time when there are lots of people eager and able to exploit your anguish and rage upon discovering this new pain.

Our healthcare services are expected to produce the maximum amount of care for the minimum cost.

That means many treatments are beneficial to almost everyone, but amongst the millions of people that receive a treatment, there will some problems.

Rather than us all going untreated, waiting for a panacea.

We could spend more on healthcare, but we've got other priorities/we're captured by socio-political forces.

[Nich]

Ok I'll clarify. If it makes sense to one person, it doesn't mean that makes sense to other people, or that it has to make sense to others.

So a doctor who purposefully betrays their hippocratic oath but continues being a doctor, for instance. Doesn't make sense from the outside, but on the inside makes perfect sense.

Or me, returning to NZG for more discussions like this. Doesn't make sense on the outside ... and on the inside... ok bad example.

[Lightspeed]

The sense we're trying to make here is if the vaccines are scams, how do the world's health experts, the millions of them, with all their skills and competencies, with the values that keep them in often miserable, poorly paying work, how do they fail to produce a volume of respectable data demonstrating this scam?

Why are they counting on dodgy petitions?

It just doesn't make sense.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Fucking Logan's Run right here. Reach an age, well, you don't really count in stats do you. Your death is normal and acceptable.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm making the case that elderly WERE the ones who suffered and died, and who rightly should have been targeted with vaccine rollouts and prioritised (they were).

For everyone else, it really is a risk/benefit analysis, because they simply weren't at high risk. Unless of course your doctor determined you WERE at high risk, in which case sure, take the damn shot. Of course hindsight is 20/20, or this case 2022, but c'mon, we all knew it was the old and the co-morbid who were at risk. That was identified very early on.

To say I'm dismissing the deaths of old people is to completely miss the point.

[Nich]

There's no problem with volume. If it's volume you want. Look no further:
https://www.covidmedicalnetwork.com/...5702954112.pdf

A reason why some protests (dodgy petitions) see the light of day, and others are invisible should be pretty obvious. If an attack is barking up the wrong tree (i.e an Alex Jones type) it will get more air time, to draw people to that to think they're sticking it to the man. If an attack is on point, it gets no airtime, any people endorsing it will get smeared (anti-vaxx!), and the content gets scrubbed as much as possible.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

The sense we're trying to make here is if the vaccines are scams, how do the world's health experts, the millions of them, with all their skills and competencies, with the values that keep them in often miserable, poorly paying work, how do they fail to produce a volume of respectable data demonstrating this scam?

If you haven't figured it out, money makes the world go round. Some people were and still are speaking out - but they get set upon by the media, by the trolls, by the bots, by those who wish to proclaim their love and trust of science, and the end result is they are character assassinated and censored, and no-one listens, or if they do, they get lumped into a group of "you people" and dismissed by association.

It's not to say "the vaccines are scams". The vaccines were [probably] well intentioned, and [probably] effective for assisting the immune systems of those who had naturally terrible immune systems. The bulk of the population [probably] didn't need them, [probably] didn't need them multiple times at that, and we [probably] could have done without all the pressure and driving a wedge down the middle of society based on irrational policies driven by ... Pfizer? The WHO/Bill Gates? Who knows who was calling the shots exactly, but the whole world jumped in unison, so someone obviously was.

The only downside is that the vaccines [probably] caused harm in people that [probably] didn't need them. In the case of MCAS the spike protein makes its way into the bone marrow and causes the immune system to go into overdrive (gross oversimplification). Then there are the blood clots, or myocarditis, or the funky face, or the spasms, or the brain bleeds, the potential miscarriages or whatever else has come up "coincidentally" and not been linked "officially" to the vaccines. And maybe those cases WERE a coincidence. But when you've been forced to take a shot that you didn't want, and something bad then happens to you, what is the natural reaction? It's certainly not being grateful for the protection that the damn thing doesn't even provide.

I emphasise "probably" so much because it's very hard to re-run the experiment and change the parameters, and much of the data is terrible quality so it's hard to make comparisons when data wasn't collected, or was but withheld, or the methods of collection and definitions kept changing over time. What's done is done. Some may regret taking them, some may regret not taking them, but I think most people are satisfied with their choice, and the vaccine producers are satisfied with the profits from mass vaccination rather than targeted vaccination. Herd immunity was the driving force until it wasn't, but by that point everyone was so convinced it was going to save us and grandma would die otherwise. Grandma still died. We weren't saved.

What gets conveniently overlooked in these discussions over and over are the very real negative effects, and if you think there aren't any, that's more "conspiracy theory" (that there a group of people who fake their symptoms to benefit somehow, even though they don't get acknowledged) than simply accepting that yes, the vaccines had side effects, and didn't stop COVID.

[Lightspeed]

No way. There are too many people who have their positions in large part due to their long term demonstrated respectability. Who have previously held these positions and are now retired.

These are people with a voice, people who when they speak up, people pay attention. NZ alone has no shortage of elder statespeople who could make their voices heard, let alone all across the world. They're not.

The flip-flops required to account for all of this are just too absurd.

[DrTiTus]

Check out this chick and tell me people aren't fucking mental:

https://twitter.com/RealScarey/statu...40195869032449

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

NZ alone...

The flip-flops required to account for all of this are just too absurd.

This was not a New Zealand decision. This was a global health organization decision, and we were in the middle of a pandemic. No one had more information than anyone else, it was just "do what feels right".

It felt right to give people vaccines to stop COVID. The problem was, they didn't stop COVID. So give them again. OK, do it again. Fuck, OK, get a booster.

Oh fuck, just a wear a mask.

Then the pandemic ends. And everyone's taken the shots.

At what point was the right time to call an end to it? Before or after society has clearly been divided and everyone who spoke out got made into a pariah?

[Nich]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/...inable-cities/

1. COVID-19 was the test of social responsibility – A huge number of unimaginable restrictions for public health were adopted by billions of citizens across the world. There were numerous examples globally of maintaining social distancing, wearing masks, mass vaccinations and acceptance of contact-tracing applications for public health, which demonstrated the core of individual social responsibility.

It doesn't end.

[Lightspeed]

At what point was the right time to call an end to it?

The first moment it was clear health science wasn't driving decision making. Which would have been apparent every step of the way.

You'd think at least ONE country's healthcare system could have spotted the scam, exposed it.

If it IS a scam, that's the best news. That means there are hyper-competent people at the helm of hyper-sophisticated systems. Obviously climate change is a scam too, but it must be one that maintains the order and stability we enjoy.

[Nich]

You obviously weren't listening when many world leaders claimed lockdowns and masks were primarily a means by which to drive up vaccination rates. No science.

This shit all gets admitted to, but it's not an expose, the response is just "mmm, yes, we did what we needed to do." Again. fuck these psychopaths.

[Lightspeed]

Political leaders playing politics.

We're all psychopaths. I get that's a painful, even shocking discovery, one you might want to disavow, as reactively as one pulls their hand from a hot stove.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

If it IS a scam, that's the best news. That means there are hyper-competent people at the helm of hyper-sophisticated systems. Obviously climate change is a scam too, but it must be one that maintains the order and stability we enjoy.

They have a website if you want to check them out: https://www.weforum.org/

If you think green energy will save us, think again. Oil and its derivatives have an energy density that is unmatched by the electrical replacements they're proposing. We need to recreate EVERYTHING [using companies they own shares in] - using fossil fuels, emitting CO2 in the process - to replace the current infrastructure. Which will cost billions if not trillions, for the sake of not making our tomatoes grow faster like they do in greenhouses currently with CO2 levels. But I'm sure some elder statesman will speak up if it's not a good idea.

[Lightspeed]

If you think green energy will save us, think again.

Your whole bit is focused around what you imagine people think.