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28th July 2021, 16:52 | #281 | |
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So frankly yes, they do deserve to get reamed for this. Had a whole rant about history vs science, societal norms and moral evolution, but it was getting off topic, so this'll do.
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28th July 2021, 17:08 | #282 |
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Agreed, which is why it'd be good know what the curriculum is for Maori Knowledge and its contents.
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28th July 2021, 17:10 | #283 |
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All that aside, yes certainly some Maori knowledge is trashy pseudoscientific BS, but a lot of it is accurate observations & predictions, just the underlying causes are not actually understood.
The same can be said of much of "western" science - indeed a lot of the Maori knowledge when compared to where the anglo-saxon knowledge at about the same level of tech? Quite advanced in comparison - it was often the surrounding cultures that were the bastions of science.
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Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية |
28th July 2021, 18:19 | #284 | ||
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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28th July 2021, 19:10 | #285 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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28th July 2021, 23:19 | #286 | |||
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
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29th July 2021, 00:47 | #287 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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I respect Tina Ngata's work and I have found many of her articles insightful. But she's referring to the social institutions that have grown up around the people and organisations that do scientific work, not to science the system.
Observations that those who benefit from power structures can impose knowledge systems are a dime a dozen, but here's another one: what if it's the knowledge system that gave them the power? What if societies that adopt an attitude of the best explanation wins, and if observation contradicts our traditional knowledge then we should assume that the traditional knowledge was wrong tend to succeed? What if societies that privilege belief over reality tend to lose? Boy, what a fucked up idea. |
29th July 2021, 01:57 | #288 |
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Because science the system only ever exists within human systems. However ideal science the system is, it's through biology it's expressed.
We've seen how "the best explanation wins" plays out. The people we like the most just seem to have the best explanations. The best explanation turns into the only explanation. Those people over there for whom a not-so-great explanation works better? Fuck 'em. Our systems of knowledge can't be abstracted from how we know. And we know this. Not everyone gets it yet, but the people doing the work do. Dinosaurs will go extinct as is inevitable.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
29th July 2021, 02:17 | #289 | |||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Then there was that time when a priest from some hick town in Belgium said he thought he had a better explanation for the weird positions of galaxies than the immortal Albert Einstein, and he got torched and everyone acknowledges that the universe isn't expanding. Quote:
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29th July 2021, 08:18 | #290 | |
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29th July 2021, 14:31 | #291 |
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Ab, you're talking about a kind of science that doesn't exist except in rare extremes.
The people doing the work, those in the thick of it, they're attending to what's actually going on. It's only from the luxury of an armchair that science exists in the way you describe Ab.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
29th July 2021, 15:18 | #292 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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"The people doing the work"? wtf? Every time a child makes a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar and confirms something he or she was told about gas they're doing the work. Every time you can't work out why your net speeds are shitty and you isolation test the network components one by one to identify the problem you're doing the work. Science is a system. |
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29th July 2021, 15:36 | #293 |
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We can still pursue "true stuff", but we need to stop prioritising what's true over what's effective.
It can be seen in these very discussions, the drive for certainty, for absoluteness. The upset we see when the world isn't ruled by English definitions. It will get us killed. I'll take wrong and alive over dead right.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
29th July 2021, 15:38 | #294 | |
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Yes, science is a system. It's not static. It grows. It's grown since you last checked in.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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29th July 2021, 16:44 | #295 |
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I think the transition that's difficult to grasp is the olden days approach of finding out the truth to the contemporary approach of finding what works.
Pronouncements from on high don't work, not well enough. That's the old way, got a lot of people fucked up. Most societies that have failed in... all of history? Got murdered, right? I dunno, I haven't seen a study. It's just... I see a lot more people getting murdered, than stumbling on their own feet.
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Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 29th July 2021 at 16:45. |
29th July 2021, 21:14 | #296 | |
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Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية |
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29th July 2021, 22:44 | #297 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Examples?
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30th July 2021, 00:44 | #298 |
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Astronavigation would be the first reference. Tidal and lunar cycles were well documented in Maori oral tradition. I'm sure there's other examples, but that's a start.
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Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية |
30th July 2021, 12:54 | #299 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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In what way were the Maori astronavigators and oral historians of tides and lunar cycles "at least as advanced" as Stone Age inhabitants of Europe? Or anywhere else?
It seems like a claim that's both unprovable and unfalsifiable. That is to say, unscientific. |
30th July 2021, 14:53 | #300 |
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I get you've got your privileged definition of science. However coming up for a name for a phenomena does not grant one authority over it.
Science is what humans have done probably since before we were humans. You watch a toddler in a playground, you'll see a human performing science. Now, you and many others might be enthralled by the Queen and her majesty, but frankly, I think her Vs are far from consummate. I mean, I get it. She's a lovely Mum. But at some point we all have to kill the parents. Else we get stuck as children.
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Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 30th July 2021 at 14:54. |
30th July 2021, 15:39 | #301 | |
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
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*follows the logic* Oh right, the definition is not static, it's *checks* just you granting a name for a phenomena and having authority over it... what? killing parents? All you see is murder? What does that mean? I think the point is not whether or Maori knowledge is science, but whether or not white people are the devil. These silly academics getting caught up in definitions of science, ignoring the screaming "Eurocentric dominance" aka accusations of white supremacy - by all white people - aspect.
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Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand... |
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30th July 2021, 15:48 | #302 | |
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What are you bringing?
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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30th July 2021, 15:58 | #303 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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30th July 2021, 16:05 | #304 |
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Stay shook. No sook. |
31st July 2021, 13:12 | #305 |
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I disagree with Hank here:
Can You Trust Science Too Much? I don't believe science is human created. Science is a part of being human.
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Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 31st July 2021 at 13:13. |
1st August 2021, 18:45 | #306 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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1st August 2021, 20:20 | #307 |
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Or maybe they won't be so arrogant, never considering themselves able to grasp the truth, instead pursuing what works. Never wiping themselves out, transcending beyond mortal limits?
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Stay shook. No sook. |
2nd August 2021, 00:58 | #308 |
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Oh brother. Lock thread please.
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2nd August 2021, 01:49 | #309 |
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Part of the consideration is the history of science, how it actually plays out as compared to what it apparently is. Because inescapably, whatever science is, it only exists within human systems.
By keeping science as a privileged term in the way it is, we actually undermine our efforts to produce robust, effective knowledge. By saying science is only this we foreclose other forms of knowledge maturing that exist in the world, especially where the knowledge doesn't fit current dominant sensibilities. The obvious example is indigenous knowledge. It gets ignored, left to languish because it's "not science". Maybe if we hadn't been so enthralled with science in the 1900s, with all the horrors we wrought with it, if it hadn't become so hyper-privileged, maybe things would be different. Maybe it could remain specialised and particular. But that's not what's happened. It's really important we don't ignore that the science we do is only a subset of what could be done, and there are complex reasons to what we do actually investigate scientifically. And all the impacts of that. Science is NOT and has NEVER BEEN purely the ideal it's proposed to be. Anyone trying to hold up science as this ideal, anyone who insists on it won't find themselves able to hold onto positions of authority within academia. This doesn't prevent anyone from adhering to this ideal, assuming they can find funding, which is the case for all science. The high ideals of old fashioned science are a delightful fantasy... we know because of the countless lives that have suffered the harsh edge of reality that is the price of this fantasy.
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Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 2nd August 2021 at 01:50. |
4th August 2021, 12:01 | #310 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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4th August 2021, 13:45 | #311 |
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You can keep your honky science, Ab. We've seen how that plays out. The rest of us are moving on to something better.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
4th August 2021, 15:39 | #312 |
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
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Argument from peer pressure.
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Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand... |
5th August 2021, 12:26 | #313 |
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^Now you're starting to get it. Scientific studies takes money & resources so better for you if you're doing what the funders want.
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Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
5th August 2021, 17:37 | #314 | ||
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP0t2MmOMEA Quote:
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Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand... Last edited by DrTiTus : 5th August 2021 at 17:38. |
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5th August 2021, 18:06 | #315 |
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What are you suggesting? This fellow represents a typical person seeking knowledge, wood ash cement a typical problem a person would liked solved?
I notice the video has a significant number of views, potentially generating at least some amount of revenue. I also note the gentleman has the opportunity to pursue these interests, rather than being compelled to work to meet material needs, perhaps debt obligations.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
5th August 2021, 19:10 | #316 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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You are confusing the system of science with the practice of entrepreneurship. Sometimes they're connected, but not necessarily.
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6th August 2021, 08:36 | #317 |
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You guys would argue about what colour the sky is. Jesus, just stop. You're all idiots for engaging.
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6th August 2021, 10:55 | #318 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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You’re right, will prune.
Edit: have pruned. |
31st August 2021, 17:48 | #319 |
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NASA Has Completed Work on the James Webb Space Telescope
I'm so excited about this. And nervous about the launch and deployment.
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16th September 2021, 14:41 | #320 |
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This is fascinating:
Something Mysterious Near The Galactic Center Is Flashing Radio Signals Basically there's some intermittently visible object near the galactic core that's only visible at radio frequencies, so not visible at IR/visible/x-ray/gamma frequencies.
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