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Old 2nd July 2020, 19:24     #881
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
You asserted that understanding the origins of this pandemic has no value. I pointed out that it does in fact have value, which you accepted. There’s not much else to say on the matter.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 19:48     #882
Lightspeed
 
I'm puzzled about the subsequent comments which appear to miss the point of my car analogy, which my comment about the value of pursing the origins of the pandemic was couched by.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 2nd July 2020 at 19:49.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 20:08     #883
Nich
 
Indoor vs outdoors spread of the virus may be explained by its evolutionary origins (ie a lab). I reckon it's a mystery worth solving regardless the political egg on faces that may result.

Knowing gain of function lab experimentation and sloppy decontamination practice resulted in a global pandemic would warrant more regulation and oversight on this branch of virology. If so, maybe we should do the investigstion and get those regulations in place before we are dealing with multiple pandemics simultaneously.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 20:22     #884
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax
You asserted that understanding the origins of this pandemic has no value. I pointed out that it does in fact have value, which you accepted. There’s not much else to say on the matter.
Interesting. I read it as an ironic comment about the antiscientific attitudes prevalent in politics in many countries (especially damn near all right-wing countries) at the moment.

... and let's face it, I don't usually defend a Lightspeed position
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Old 2nd July 2020, 20:56     #885
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
I don’t see a lot of ambiguity, but no argument from me about prevalent antiscientific attitudes (or just scientific ignorance) in politics.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 13:33     #886
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Indoor vs outdoors spread of the virus may be explained by its evolutionary origins (ie a lab). I reckon it's a mystery worth solving regardless the political egg on faces that may result.

Knowing gain of function lab experimentation and sloppy decontamination practice resulted in a global pandemic would warrant more regulation and oversight on this branch of virology. If so, maybe we should do the investigstion and get those regulations in place before we are dealing with multiple pandemics simultaneously.
Would we learn anything we don't already know? It seems clear, and coherent with what we see elsewhere, that the biggest challenge we're facing is political ideology and posturing trumping (...) academic consensus and appropriate expert advice. Not the absence of such.

Given we're not acting on what we know now, what good is more knowledge? All we need is our guy to say "nup" to the advice of much more appropriate experts and we're on board.

I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened. I suspect any meaningful research in the West will be perpetrated by the wicked deep state, occurring outside the awareness of elected leadership.

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
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Old 3rd July 2020, 13:43     #887
Nich
 
Fair point, I keep forgetting that tribal truth and individual truth beats evidence-based truth. And I agree, even if an investigation was successful, one tribe will claim it's true and the opposing tribe will take the contrary position. We'll just end up with more disagreement and more stalemate.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 15:57     #888
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened.
Numerous teams both inside and outside China, along with joint efforts, are actively researching the virus' origins (many are posting their findings in the public domain) and the results are potentially beneficial for the whole world.

Quote:

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
What do you propose should happen?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 16:06     #889
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Would we learn anything we don't already know? It seems clear, and coherent with what we see elsewhere, that the biggest challenge we're facing is political ideology and posturing trumping (...) academic consensus and appropriate expert advice. Not the absence of such.

Given we're not acting on what we know now, what good is more knowledge? All we need is our guy to say "nup" to the advice of much more appropriate experts and we're on board.

I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened. I suspect any meaningful research in the West will be perpetrated by the wicked deep state, occurring outside the awareness of elected leadership.

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
Remembering, at one point, stating with conviction that the world was a globe would have you laughed out of a room at best, or burnt at the stake for heresy at worst. A glut of evidence will predominantly trump 'tribal truths'. Of course the "true believers" may always push back, but eventually science takes precedence.

So while I understand the reservations about research, I think the issue is more with the mechanisms in which they are being released. A million half arsed 'scientific' investigations releasing propaganda, isn't science. It's religion. We have to find a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Typically it's called Peer Review. Our science has to find a way back to that, rather than this push and publish bs we're seeing at the moment.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 17:00     #890
Lightspeed
 
You make a good point, alas IMO the last "glut of evidence" was WWII. It was firmly demonstrated to deluded leaders and their followers what actual competence is.

As has been pointed out, our formal systems of knowledge are still relatively healthy. If they're declining it's because of a neglect felt everywhere.

It's informal systems of knowledge that are failing, something I think we see even here. We get wrapped up churning over painful shit that generates no outcome whatever conclusion we draw. Figuring out not what's true or not, but how do we engage with each other given the divisions we have and the need to coherent action.

China has a way. I think it's awful. Upon hearing how the Chinese government was talking about consequences for the civil disruption in Hong Kong, I reflected on how that's a one-way street, given Hong Kong citizens are unable to impose consequences on the government, a right Westerners enjoy as given.

At this point though all our options are awful. They get worse by the day because we're unable to face these awful options.

We know what's outside. We need to look inside. That's what we're ignoring right now. That's what I propose.

For instance, there is no pressing need to know how effective masks are. It's the standard of care we have, so until robust evidence comes along that's what we do. But who hasn't been caught up in their own narrative about masks? That's bullshit that's costing lives. It's not USEFUL for us to be cooking up these stories for ourselves, we NEED to have trust in institutions, else we die preventable deaths.

But we don't and that's a problem that needs solving. It's much more pressing than the specifics of this pandemic which will no doubt be researched in any case, with little to nothing to be gained from our musings and finger pointing right now.

Anyway, just bouncing ideas.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 3rd July 2020 at 17:02.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 17:36     #891
Trigga*happY
 
The biggest hurdle right now is... Trump. His hyper active supporters are low income, low education sycophants. Dare I say redneck, in a hypersensitive world of racial discrimination?

It is Trump's push to move the narrative away from Covid that is driving the wedge between science and "the masses". With Trump downplaying the effectiveness of the mask, his die harders won't follow CDC directives. If one sect doesn't follow suit, the unsure are less likely to mask also, and if you have two sect's not wearing masks, you now have a problem.

Trump has done such a good job of conflating mask wearing, with first amendment rights, gun control, and elitism, it's going to be hard to break those stigmas.

Remove Trump... problem PARTIALLY solved.
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Old 4th July 2020, 18:48     #892
Nich
 
Victoria reports 108 new coronavirus cases, as 'hard lockdown' announced for nine public housing towers
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/victoria...housing-towers

Effective immediately, housing towers on lockdown with around 500 police assigned to enforcement.

ACAB - Aussie Cops Are Benevolent
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Old 4th July 2020, 19:16     #893
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
around 500 police assigned to enforcement.
More than that assigned: it's 500 per shift
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Old 6th July 2020, 18:22     #894
Lightspeed
 


It's basically gallows humour now, there's no shortage of it. It's so good/bad.
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Old 6th July 2020, 22:41     #895
crocos
 
SciShow describing some of the after-effects of even asymtomatic patients
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIJYfsOyO4M
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Old 8th July 2020, 17:56     #896
Nothing
 
This is rage inducing, quarantine jumper goes to supermarket:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...r-covid-escape

Dunno who that fuckwit was, but I want him to do prison time, and a lot of it.
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Old 8th July 2020, 18:05     #897
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
In today’s schadenfreude update, Jair Bolsonaro’s luck finally runs out and he tests positive.
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Old 8th July 2020, 20:25     #898
blynk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
This is rage inducing, quarantine jumper goes to supermarket:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...r-covid-escape

Dunno who that fuckwit was, but I want him to do prison time, and a lot of it.
Especially Considering had been tested positive for covid.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:13     #899
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Strayacunt

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-...eened/12433286
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Old 9th July 2020, 12:29     #900
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Latest from the wonderful world of we don't know what the fuck this virus does:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...covid-symptoms

Quote:
Doctors may be missing signs of serious and potentially fatal brain disorders triggered by coronavirus, as they emerge in mildly affected or recovering patients, scientists have warned.

Neurologists are on Wednesday publishing details of more than 40 UK Covid-19 patients whose complications ranged from brain inflammation and delirium to nerve damage and stroke. In some cases, the neurological problem was the patient’s first and main symptom.
Shit's starting to read like The Andromeda Strain.
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Old 9th July 2020, 18:41     #901
crocos
 
Interesting opinion piece by a NZ journo working for Al Jazeera panning NZ's media in their handling of the virus.
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Old 9th July 2020, 19:54     #902
crocos
 
Have been looking at options for moving back to NZ to escape the madness that is Victoria. Alas it's looking less than practical right now.

Selfish? Yes - I thought I established that previously
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Old 9th July 2020, 21:41     #903
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Are there even flights?
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Old 9th July 2020, 22:30     #904
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Are there even flights?
Well yes that is the one of the larger issues.
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Old 14th July 2020, 17:52     #905
xor
 
Move to Queensland, maaaaate.
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Old 14th July 2020, 17:59     #906
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
As if anyone's allowed in or out of Victoria right now.
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Old 14th July 2020, 18:28     #907
Nich
 
NSW / VIC border is shut. Even Wodonga / Albury travel is limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
Move to Queensland, maaaaate.
Don't go about it like these dickheads, though:
‘It’s not on’: Victorian travellers in van fined $24k for trying to cross Queensland border
https://www.news.com.au/national/que...af6f0fd2e10c49


Also, churches have received coronavirus aid allocated for small businesses... they proceed to use the funds to recoup the payouts to victims of sexual abuse.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholi...-aid-lobbying/

If they're going to argue they should stay open like small businesses, and they are going to take stimulus intended for small businesses, maybe it's time they paid tax like small businesses.
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Old 15th July 2020, 14:44     #908
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
If they're going to argue they should stay open like small businesses, and they are going to take stimulus intended for small businesses, maybe it's time they paid tax like small businesses.
This. So very much this.
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Old 17th July 2020, 11:37     #909
Nich
 
And some good news: Chesapeake Energy (fracking) and California Resources Corp. (oil drilling) are bankrupt. First dominoes in two corrupt industries.
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Old 17th July 2020, 21:22     #910
crocos
 
Fucking Victoria. 428 new cases found yesterday, 3 deaths.

Why won't people take pretty fucking basic, sensible precautions?

It annoys the heck out of me when I'm one of the few (and the others are usually, although not exclusively, asian) that wears a facemask in shops etc. And soo many don't seem to be out for their daily exercise either.

What is so fucking hard about:
  • Stay Home
  • If you can't, wear a facemask
  • stay away from others when you're out
  • sanitize
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Old 17th July 2020, 22:32     #911
blynk
 
While we probably got skewed media, even during the first lockdown the impression I got was that there were a lot of aussies that didnt care.

Things like heading to the beach and heading out and about.
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Old 17th July 2020, 22:42     #912
crocos
 
Most of those fuckwads aren't being THAT dumb anymore - and the cops are pretty quick on getting them arrested to protect the dumb fuckers (not that those DFs could ever acknowledge that) - but there's still a lot that are going riiiight to the very edge of things AND the Vic government isn't legislating for masks in stores or similar.
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Old 18th July 2020, 00:04     #913
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, fuck all that noise. Stay safe crocos.
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Old 18th July 2020, 10:00     #914
MadMax
Stuff
 
No surprises there
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Old 18th July 2020, 12:58     #915
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Things like heading to the beach and heading out and about.
To be fair, going to the beach does not seem to be a problematic activity. Outside, not too close to other people, sunshine, salt water. The media keeps posting outragepieces featuring crowds at beaches but it's just clickbait.

Groups of closely-packed people breathing each other's respiration INDOORS, that's the timebomb. Pubs, concerts, shopping centres, churches, buses and trains.
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Old 18th July 2020, 14:57     #916
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
To be fair, going to the beach does not seem to be a problematic activity. Outside, not too close to other people, sunshine, salt water. The media keeps posting outragepieces featuring crowds at beaches but it's just clickbait.

Groups of closely-packed people breathing each other's respiration INDOORS, that's the timebomb. Pubs, concerts, shopping centres, churches, buses and trains.
I'm sure somewhere I saw some modelling for the spread of particles of corona virus laden droplets - the point was that when air is moving, say, because of an airconditioning unit, or a light breeze, the particles could travel much further. Beaches often have breezes.
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Old 18th July 2020, 15:22     #917
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Beaches often have breezes.
But also salt (causes virus cell to die from dehydration - I'll admit I'm not sure if C-19 is impacted that way), UV (decompose virus cell walls), and - usually - enough space that it's actually incredibly unlikely to get enough of a viral load for it to successfully infect.

In some ways taking exercise at the beach is better than at a park: Parks have shelter (trees, plants - more places with less UV exposure) and no salt.

One of the major "no beaches" rules is because (most) people need to travel to beaches and they're trying to restrict travel. Another reason is many of the early beach-issues was crowding so unable to maintain social distancing.
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Old 18th July 2020, 15:25     #918
Nich
 
edit, crocos beat me to it
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Old 18th July 2020, 15:29     #919
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
edit, crocos beat me to it
/waves Hello, fellow Victorian!
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Old 18th July 2020, 15:57     #920
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Another reason is many of the early beach-issues was crowding so unable to maintain social distancing.
Yea, I guess that's the sort of scenario I'm thinking of. Some beaches it would be dumb to worry about. Like 90 mile beach in NZ. Most of it is empty most of the time. Other beaches? Not so much. Scorching bay on a hot summers day is not a good place for social distancing. I wonder how long hot summer sunlight takes to kill the corona cells in a droplet?
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