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-   -   Eruption at Whakaari/White Island (https://forums.nzgames.com/showthread.php?t=87924)

Lightspeed 9th December 2019 17:23

Eruption at Whakaari/White Island
 
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...i-white-island

Quote:

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says at this stage, "we believe 100 people were on, or around the island".

Some are "unaccounted for".

BoyWonder 9th December 2019 19:49

27 unaccounted for apparently. Could be pretty grim :(

pxpx 9th December 2019 19:59

1 Confirmed fatality and they aren't landing on the island at the moment

Lightspeed 9th December 2019 22:43

This Twitter thread is incredible.

Ab 10th December 2019 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed (Post 2009132)
This Twitter thread is incredible.

Holy shit!!

Ab 10th December 2019 17:56

As someone who considers himself a child of the BOP (Steamers represent), my first reaction was what the fuck were people doing on the island?

Whakaari was in pretty much constant eruption my whole childhood and in my head it's always been in the unsafe places box. I didn't even know there were now tourist visits. Well, were tourist visits.

Lightspeed 10th December 2019 18:05

Police have just announced a criminal investigation.

crocos 10th December 2019 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed (Post 2009135)
Police have just announced a criminal investigation.

Because of the increased activity on the island over the last few weeks yet not cancelling the tours? Seems sensible to at minimum investigate to rule out criminal negligence. Or confirm it.

Cyberbob 11th December 2019 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed (Post 2009135)
Police have just announced a criminal investigation.

They just announced that they didn't mean to announce that, and there isn't one.

blynk 11th December 2019 10:55

I think what you need to look at is

1 - what does level 2 actually mean. Does it mean there is a 50% chance it will erupt, or a 1%.

2 - Along with that, the last time I believe it erupted was a very long time ago. How many times has it been at level 2. I believe a lot.

I think the wording criminal investigation is misleading. It makes it sound like there is actually something wrong.
It should be more like an enquiry to ensure that good and correct practices were in place.

StN 11th December 2019 12:59

I understand what they meant to say was that Police have been asked to investigate to support the Coronial enquiry due to it being classed by the Chief Coroner as a mass fatality incident.

fixed_truth 11th December 2019 15:57

Should visiting the island be banned? There's obviously risk involved in going to an active volcano. If the company followed the rules then maybe make some extra regulations or something & let people make an informed decision whether they want to take the risk.

blynk 11th December 2019 17:14

I would assume that they did let people know about the risks, but is it like T&Cs and no one pays attention to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StN (Post 2009142)
I understand what they meant to say was that Police have been asked to investigate to support the Coronial enquiry due to it being classed by the Chief Coroner as a mass fatality incident.

Yes, my understanding too, but Criminal Investigation still sounds like they have already determined the Tour companies were in the the wrong and they will be charged.

Ab 11th December 2019 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by blynk (Post 2009140)
the last time I believe it erupted was a very long time ago.

2016

StN 11th December 2019 17:52

Can the Government ban access to private property?

fixed_truth 11th December 2019 22:40

Quote:

A Level 2 or 3 (a minor eruption) will prompt GNS Science to send warnings via the media, Civil Defence and aviation authorities, local councils and social media. But that's all it can do. Legally, it cannot stop people landing on the island or sightseeing close by from a boat. "We don't have a legitimate mandate to stop people," Scott says.
Quote:

Scott says tour companies licensed to take visitors to the island, one boat operator and three helicopter companies in Whakatane, Rotorua and Tauranga, make up their own minds after checking the volcano's activity. "It's the way New Zealand works."
Quote:

GNS Science staff have had "terse discussions" with tour operators who have landed visitors on the island in conditions which make volcanologists anxious. "We don't visit but they still go."
5 years ago https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=11320205

Ab 12th December 2019 16:48

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/12/...-white-island/

fixed_truth 12th December 2019 18:03

I'm wondering how informed tourists actually were about the dangers. 18,000 tourist per yeah over a few decades(?) is a big built up of anecdotal evidence that understates the actual risk. If tours do continue I suppose anyone willing to go there fully knows the risks now.

blynk 13th December 2019 19:10

Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.

reac 14th December 2019 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by blynk (Post 2009188)
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.

Yes.

Lightspeed 14th December 2019 14:03

One way to look at the phenomena is as a historical artefact of complex human living. You can see them everywhere if you look, however we're raised thinking everything is proper and ordered, rational and coherent, so that's what we're cued to recognise and acknowledge, things that don't fit having a sense of wrongness to them.

This view of the world as ordered is just one of the many abstractions from reality we indulge in, which are powerful tools while they work. Problems emerge when we confuse our abstractions with reality. From power struggles: people fighting to assert their abstraction, to simple stupidity: acting with the abstraction despite it obviously being a large step away from observed reality.

We're still pretty hooked on ideas of the right way and the wrong way, but these are giving way as we mature.

Ab 14th December 2019 15:27

Thanks Nahaz

Drink!

Cyberbob 14th December 2019 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by StN (Post 2009151)
Can the Government ban access to private property?

I assume it'd be a public exclusion zone like the chch red zone was, which impacted private property for sure.

Ab 14th December 2019 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by blynk (Post 2009188)
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.

Can anyone me why blynk doesn't consider this totally normal?

Lightspeed 14th December 2019 19:45

People caught up in their lives. We've set things up this way. Our systems designed to inform and influence are committed to getting people to buy stuff or vote against their interests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab (Post 2009193)
Thanks Nahaz

Drink!

Anyone get the reference, it's lost on me?

MadMax 14th December 2019 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by blynk (Post 2009188)
Can anyone me why everyone is calling it whakaari/white Island?

To me it seems like saying I'm going up Mt egmont/taranaki or we live in aotearoa/new Zealand.

That's actually its official name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whakaari/White_Island

Different of course to Mt Taranaki which was known as and renamed (officially from 2020) Mt Egmont

StN 15th December 2019 19:23

Oh - I am reminded of the tax loophole that was opened and closed for gift duty when Aoraki/Mt Cook was granted to Ngai Tahu as part of the settlement, and they gave it back. GG _b

Ab 15th December 2019 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by StN (Post 2009204)
when Aoraki/Mt Cook was returned to Ngai Tahu

ftfy

StN 16th December 2019 09:09

^ Good point.

Lightspeed 30th November 2020 15:17

WorkSafe files charges against 13 parties in wake of Whakaari/White Island tragedy

StN 9th December 2020 16:12

I can't help thinking that these Whakaari White Island prosecutions are related to Worksafe's "Everyone gets home safely" driver. With everyone working from home for half a year, they have to justify their existence...

Then again, maybe they need test(ed) cases for the heroes to get off - if only they could claim compo for the stress. I don't think a petition is the right way to get a lasting result for "You are being prosecuted because you flew your helicopter into a dangerous area without thought for your safety and as a side effect saved 12(?) people..."

Lightspeed 9th December 2020 16:22

My guess it's a situation where they can't pick and choose who to prosecute if the law is to be applied even and fairly.

It doesn't seem like the case where individual scientists were charged in Italy for not adequately predicting an earthquake.

The law will be exposed as not fit for purpose if those responding to an emergency are convicted for their efforts.

blynk 10th December 2020 22:05

Yeah, I understand the emotion of it. But let's take a different view.

A person is driving up to an intersection, and sees someone run a red light and crashes into the car in front of them.
Theres a huge fire. They risk their life pulling a baby out of the back seat.
Wow a hero.
Then you find out that in the previous 2 weeks, that hero racked up 25 red light offences and speeding offences
Do you wave them all because they risked their lives?

Those heroes could have been the ones on the island that day. Carrying tourists that were killed.
Just because you did something great one day, doesn't neccessary give you a free pass for all the wrong you may have done in the past.

Admittedly, I don't know the full extent of what "prosecutions" are.
Are they actual court cases, are they investigations? What are they trying to establish

crocos 11th December 2020 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by blynk (Post 2013970)
Yeah, I understand the emotion of it. But let's take a different view.

A person is driving up to an intersection, and sees someone run a red light and crashes into the car in front of them.
Theres a huge fire. They risk their life pulling a baby out of the back seat.
Wow a hero.
Then you find out that in the previous 2 weeks, that hero racked up 25 red light offences and speeding offences
Do you wave them all because they risked their lives?

Those heroes could have been the ones on the island that day. Carrying tourists that were killed.
Just because you did something great one day, doesn't neccessary give you a free pass for all the wrong you may have done in the past.

Admittedly, I don't know the full extent of what "prosecutions" are.
Are they actual court cases, are they investigations? What are they trying to establish

The thing your analogy doesn't account for is prior to this heroism the organisation prosecuting you for risking yourself signed off that running the red lights was OK and at an acceptable level of risk.

WorkSafe had just two weeks before signed off that the flights over and visits to the island were fine.

blynk 11th December 2020 09:53

Thank you for the clarification. That was a part I had not heard.

crocos 11th December 2020 12:51

Pardon me - two months not weeks, but still.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118...efore-eruption

And like so many things it's a little more nuanced than my memories of it. Still - WorkSafe definitely knew about this, was involved in auditing operations on the island, and said bupkis.

Lightspeed 3rd June 2021 13:23

Whakaari/White Island: Confusion over safety responsibilities at senior level

Quote:

As minister since 2017, Mahuta has automatically been the territorial authority for eleven offshore islands such as Whakaari/White Island, Mōtītī Island and Tūhua (Mayor Island).

Department of Internal Affairs staff have spent months reviewing her health and safety, civil defence and emergency management duties for Whakaari.

They have now told her: "It is not clear in the legislation how your role as Territorial Authority is intended to work in practice."

[fe] 18th December 2022 16:27

Whakaari doc is up on Netflix.

Lightspeed 31st October 2023 19:27

Whakaari Management convicted of one health and safety charge relating to fatal eruption

Quote:

"WorkSafe has established that Whakaari Management is not a passive landowner," the judge said. "The relevant duty was for WML to ensure that the health of safety of persons it permitted to be on Whakaari was not put at risk."

He said Whakaari Management had not done proper risk assessments or engaged with experts at research institute GNS Science.

"The interaction between WML and GNS was not enough to amount to taking necessary expert advice on the risk of permitting tours on Whakaari," Thomas said.

"[It] was ad-hoc, infrequent, unstructured, informal and incomplete when much more was required."


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