Surely the lesson of Alliance/United Future/Maori Party is that under our current flavour of MMP going into a governing coalition with a larger party equals the death of your little party.
Seems to me the Greens are in a healthier long-term position by staying out of government and forcing whoever is to come to them for support on confidence and supply if necessary. |
Whatever happens, ACT won't be a part of the next Government, thank God. They're a relic well past their use-by date.
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I quite like the idea of there being a libertarianish liberal party in the NZ mix. My fingers were burned by Rodney Hide's troughing though.
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Winston has categorically said he will not work with ACT, but I don't think National really need them anyway if they end up being the next government (which, as I write this, is still up in the air as to which way Winston will go).
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What about NZF + Greens, Labour for C&S?
That actually might be amazing. |
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This a weird situation where I guess both National and Labour will be happy.
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Hold on, LAB+NZF does not equal a majority. It has to be LAB+NZF+GRN. And a coalition agreement requires a vote from the entire Green membership. They could say no.
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The Greens won't say no. Come on.
It doesn't have to be a 3 way coalition does it? Winston announced a coalition between NZF and Labour. When asked about the Greens, he said it was up to Labour to negotiate with them. Greens likely are to be in Supply & Confidence. |
Off to Aliexpress to corner the market...
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Guess we can look forward to modern living issues seen around the world, that national caused, finally fixed.
That or declare a crisis every week to keep up with the norm. |
This election was actually 2/3's a landslide to the left, if you take into account the conservative 2014 4% of the vote. If Gareth Morgan had have fucked off, it would have been close to dead even, after the specials.
It's a generational turning point too imo, the boomers have finally lost control. |
If by lost control, you mean just selected the government of the day and probably occupy the 4 positions jacinda caved to, yeah.. I guess so. (I'm assuming Martin is +1)
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Seriously though, thank fuck. I could only see National doubling down on their bullshit if they clung on. |
Well fuck me. National tempered with Winston would have been a major improvement so this is marvelous. Thanks JK
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It’s crazy how polarising this election became on social media. There was no weighing up the merit of each parties’ policy and going for the team that appealed to you most. It was All Blacks vs Australia, pick a team and if it’s different to mine you’re the enemy. Which is pretty sad really.
Also it’s surprising how many butthurt National supporters still don’t understand MMP. And from the reaction of English (& the young Nats) on election night, it seems National doesn’t either. |
Winston telegraphed his decision in his speech.
He said he was miffed that National had ignored multiple requests from the IMF to devalue the NZ $. I voted National at the elections but almost voted Labour because Ms Ahern seems like a new broom with fresh ideas and energy. I'm normally pissed with Winston because he loves to wave the power maker card,but this time around he genuinely wants to help the party that would bring positive solutions for the country. As I understand it,Labour won't enforce the water tax farmers were dreading. It would be political suicide for the Greens to not sign a coalition doc. On the Greens,the leader was on a morning breakfast show some time ago and I was very impressed with his knowledge on foreign and financial matters. I can't stand the Greens normally butit almost seems like they have taken off their homespun woolen vests and put on the suit of responcibility and reasonable thinking.Interesting times for our country. I felt sorry for Ms Turie (sp) getting dumped for her admission about the dpb-she seems one of the few honest people in politics. The Maori Party railed on Labour for the fact their party bombed out in the election.I thought it was Maori people who voted for Labour instead of them so isn't that the will of the people? _b |
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Yes that's exactly what my reaction is to finding out that Winston Peters has determined the outcome of the election and has made himself Deputy Prime Minister, that NZ First controls the government, and that their main condition is restricting immigration. Totally boomers finally losing control. |
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I think English has handled this very well (no idea what the Young Nats have done but I presume it's something dickish, because Young Nats). The way Fairfax are reporting this is basically "Winston wanted influence over things in a manner disproportionate to NZ First's share in Parliament; English wasn't prepared to give it to him while Jacinda was" Quote:
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I wouldn't say that is disproportionate. For Labour, which had a smaller %, 4 is about spot on. |
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I'm still coming to terms with Winston going with the Green albeit in a roundabout way. |
Morgan Godfery this morning:
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The worst thing that could possibly happen is for National to be a disciplined and strong Opposition and for the Lab-Winston-Green union to be a dysfunctional soap opera. Because that means a landslide single-party Nat victory in three years.
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It might. I mean, that makes sense, but keep in mind voters.
National definitely still have some momentum. Labour can do a fantastic job, but if they can't do it in a way that the public gets, and National double down on gas-lighting the public, well that might mean only one term for Labour. I don't see a meltdown as likely to happen, I thought things went well with Peters and Clark. It's National and NZF that don't get on. |
KDS participants, bemoaning polarized social media, is pretty good.
That and 50/50 going out the door day one. What a surprise. When it came down to it and the timing was right, that lot still went with experience on the day. Those fake fucks. |
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Interesting how it played out. In hindsight I suppose Labour & NZ First are closer aligned politically and so would work together better. |
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Policy discussions seem largely arbitrary. Mostly we learn who can whip up the most fervour, who tells the best story. I'd rather we scrutinise the politicians themselves. Organise and reflect on what we know about them, what responsibilities they've shouldered, how they handle authority, the nature and quality of their decision making. But clearly that's not the age of politics we live in. We just dodged a bullet, but there are plenty more rounds in the clip. |
I think it’s more important to make voting decisions based on policy because that’s what is going to directly affect people lives. There were a lot of people voting for National because they liked John Key but by doing so were voting against their own interests. Imo New Zealand is in the sorry state it is now because of personality politics (& ironically, we’ve got the opportunity to do better because of it!).
Though saying that I do think social media is a difficult platform/structure to have meaningful policy discussions. That’s partly because people have preconceived opinions that they identify with and so treat anything that counters this as an attack on them. Also because there’s so much false information and scare mongering going on. A big part of National staying in the game is because they can just spray bullshit knowing some of it will stick, which we saw a lot of during the lead up to the election (11b hole, tax scare mongering etc etc). During this election people were still parroting the line that the last Labour Govt. were poor financial managers and left a mess for National. Oh the cognitive dissonance when explained who Michael Cullen is and why he was knighted and particularly by who. The Greens have a bill that all policy would need to be independently costed, I’d maybe like to see that extended to an independent analysis of likely outcomes. |
Bye-bye Kermadec ocean sanctuary
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...greens-unaware NZ First needs to look after its donors in the industrial fisheries industry, demands cancellation of ocean sanctuary legislation. Quote:
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Bye-bye Kermadec ocean sanctuary
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...greens-unaware NZ First needs to look after its donors in the industrial fisheries industry, demands cancellation of ocean sanctuary legislation. Isn't this going to piss the greens off? :confused: (Please don't tell me everyone in the fishing industry is a boomer... ;>P ) |
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That's because it's a shitpost botch-up attempt at quoting Ab. Just click on the link in his post.
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I see what you mean – when the Govt. makes changes that weren’t specific policy that they campaigned on during the election. My understanding of how these sensitive claim changes came about is that the Govt. required ACC’s policies on administrating claims to cost less. So this was all about political ideology and as a direct result of these ideological changes was a low number of successful claims. Maybe it’s too idealistic but it would be helpful if voters understood party’s ideological foundation (civics education?). When you know that National generally believes in less state intervention then when they cut services and under-fund health and education and sell it as necessary belt tightening then you can call bs and see it’s actually just them following the ideology and values they believe in. Sadly these sensitive claim problems were identified two elections ago and too many people fell for the bs and brushed it aside as some unfortunate unavoidable consequence of scarcity. |
You're very generous with your view of politics, I'm more cynical.
Voters with understanding is the very opposite of what some political parties seek. Voters who vote for them is what they are after, and often given a party's fundamental political aims, informed voters will not achieve that. This is the double-edged knife Labour and the Greens must live with. Their supporters favour being informed over being powerful. So if they get caught playing at cooking up bullshit, they get punished by their core supporters. Of course, presenting what's real and inevitably unflattering, they risk the support of the swing vote. National's base is about power, they know what's right, they make the best decisions, they should be running the country. You just need to tell them what they want to hear, any problems can be foisted onto the vulnerable. The swing vote likes a good story too. Of course reality eventually bites which is National's challenge to staying in power. Fortunately they can't turn to authoritarianism, which is available in so many other countries. Scarcity is one such story, despite living in an age of abundance. If scarcity appears real, it's because we've been pouring our greatest resource down the drain the last nine years: people. |
I don't see things in such doom and gloom National eat babies terms. I think that they have done a pretty good job by most measurements, but that the time has come for some attention to be paid to the things that National has not considered high priority stuff.
I'll be the first to admit I love Bill's technocratic approach to welfare because Spending money on at-risk kids when they are kids is way cheaper than spending money on them when they're adults ...is the sort of thing that even neoliberal rich pricks can get behind. Looking after our kids saves the taxpayer money is a leftwing goal with a rightwing justification. My sorta kinda gut feeling on the election: English and Key have, for nine years, generally had a "no surprises" policy of telling people what they're going to do, then doing it effectively. Their priorities and decisions have been generally centrist with nods to the outer reaches of each side of the (admittedly silly) 2-dimensional spectrum we're used to thinking about. Their management has put NZ in a very very healthy position economically relative to other OECD countries. Unemployment is low, inflation is low, government debt relative to GDP is declining, and we've had govt surpluses for three years in a row and was on track for something like 2.8% of GDP by 2022. Fucking caning it economically. But it seems like this has come at a high social cost. I'm in another country so don't have on-the-ground visibility of this stuff, but it sounds to me* as if things like homelessness, mental health, youth suicide stats are in a horrible state for a country that has been doing so well economically. If there is 1.8billion left over after government spending this year, and depressed kids killing themselves left and right, well hey maybe we shoulda spent some of that money amirite. The worst bit is Winston's involvement. He's a populist parasite yearning for the good old days of Muldoonist state control of everything backed by a voter bloc of old white racists. I deliberately partyvoted Green this election just in case we ended up in this situation, where an inexperienced lefty leadership is being led around by the nose by an experienced Winston. * I read Lightspeed's posts |
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Also imo it has come at a high social cost because it was shitty management. Growth comes from unfettered immigration and a runaway housing market. Unemployment stats hide measurement adjustments and thousands pushed out of the system. There's only a surplus because public sectors like education are underfunded to the brink of collapsing. I don't see growth or surpluses as something to be valued if as a society if it's only really benefiting those at the top. |
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